Jeffrey Glenn - An introduction to Tech Diving

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Matt Waters: Hey, they dive buddies and welcome to the show.

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So one of the topics within Scuba diving that I want to get

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into is technical diving. Now, I've done a lot of diving myself

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recreational played around with a few of the tech toys but never

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really delved into it in any depth. So, rather than me

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jabbering on I thought it would be a good idea to bring on a

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geezer that knows as much as you need to know about tech diving

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really. And he can talk us through why people get

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interested in tech diving. His name is Jeffrey Glen. Jeff,

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welcome to the show, buddy. How you doing mate?

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Jeffrey Glenn: Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me on Scuba.

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It's nice to see you. Nice to talk with you.

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Matt Waters: It's been a while it's been a while too long. And

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how's the how's the surf this morning?

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Jeffrey Glenn: It's pretty ordinary Bali and wake up call

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check the surf report. Poor sleeping was head it was

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enjoyable.

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Matt Waters: Before we get into any depth Do you want to give

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the guys that are listening background on your shelf? And

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you know, how you got into the diving industry and where it's

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evolved to.

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Jeffrey Glenn: Okay, yeah, sure, no problem. So Matt. So I

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started with my open water course in in Airlie Beach close

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to 30 years ago. So I've been in a dive industry for some time,

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heading out to the Great Barrier Reef and joined diving as much

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as I did, I proceeded and moved through the ranks and became a

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divemaster up there. Enjoyed that travelled the world a

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little bit, ended up in Egypt, on a liveaboard to Tony Becker's

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ever go foot in England. And I've just done a live report on

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the Angelina and I met this guy on the pier, he had a kotel

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shirt on and I asked him about it. And he told me about it,

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cool, put that in the memory bank and then went back to the

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UK worked a little bit more. And then when I decided to go on to

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become an instructor, I remember that T shirt. So Google Kotel

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and off I went did my instructor course. And that was in

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22 2000, march 2000, I went out to Kotagiri my instructor

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course, the idea the plan was to do my instructor course and then

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move through to Central America where I could combine my love of

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surfing and diving and work away in the tropics, but ended up

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staying on Koh Tao proceeded, proceeded to teach open water

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courses advanced courses rescue now for a good couple of years,

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then became a little bored with it so proceeded to become a

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Odyssey staff instructor and get myself involved with instructor

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development courses with a couple of the leading cause

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structures at the time their master Walker and and Jonah

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Samuelson proceeded to do that. Then went to Kota Kinabalu in

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Borneo did my city course cdtc with a friend of ours, Guillaume

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fogless, who's now working for Patty in America, procedure to

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that for a couple of years instructor development than

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doubled in the technical diving. Were absolutely fell in love

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with the challenges and the excitement, that technical

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diving brought to me. And then just focus on that for the last

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basically 10 to 15 years.

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Matt Waters: So yeah, with little island for quite some

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Jeffrey Glenn: time, quite some time. And the beauty of

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technical diving is that yeah, you're continually learning. I

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felt with the recreational sphere, you sort of get to a

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certain level and the progression just basically

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stops, there's not too much more you can do in the recreation

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around that with technical diving, it's it's continually

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evolving, the technology is continually developing the toys,

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continually improving, and becoming more enjoyable to use.

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And so allowing the exploration scope to widen so there's always

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something to do.

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Matt Waters: So what was it that actually was it the boredom of

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of recreational, repetitive instruction? Or was it the

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attraction of more exploration within within tech diving? I'm

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trying to just decipher what it is that draws people to

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technical diving.

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Jeffrey Glenn: Okay, I think you've you've summed it up

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nicely there mate. For me personally. It was just the the

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boredom, the repetition, the mediocrity of just doing the

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same thing on our DCS, ticking, ticking the boxes on the

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evaluation cards and and I just felt that I was just there Is

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this is this is this, there's going to be more to it. And at

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the same time, I started to develop my technical skills. And

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that was allowing me to go a little bit further in the

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overhead environments go a little bit deeper in the racks.

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And I always came back from a day of technical diving, fully

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pumped for more. Whereas I can compare that to a day of it sees

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I was like I'm a guy that continually likes to develop and

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progress and evolve as, as a human as a diver and technical

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diving enabled me to do that become better. Because I was

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challenging myself, I didn't really feel jet challenged up to

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an RDC it was the same as demo. Repetition. So yeah, to

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summarise that, Matt. Yeah, it was a repetition. That sort of

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bored me or the season recreational, whereas the

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excitement of being able to push my limits further and technical

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diving is which watch led me to transition fully into technical

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diver development. Technical exploration.

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Matt Waters: Yeah, yeah. Now the the amount of people that you

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taught dive in, and you know, people could account search and

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all that kind of thing. You've done a few now.

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Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, he could say that. You can say that.

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Yeah, I've probably done more technical diver certs than I

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have recreational certs. Keep in mind when I was working as a

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recreational instructor, I was representing probably the

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biggest Scuba diving school on the planet teaching Apex

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advanced bands. I've been rezoned Kotel, you know, you're

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doing maximum ratio of eight students to one instructor, day

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after day, week after week, month after month, year after

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year. So to say that I've got just as many technical services

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recreational is giving you an idea of the broad range of

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students that I've taught. That's, that's gone from entry

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level, technical, which is a soft tech into the high tech,

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which is the overhead and the rebreathers. So you've done done

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a few

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Matt Waters: of those. And that was a beautiful lead in there.

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I'll drop you your fiver later. Can you let's let's talk through

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the way people get into tech diver because I was actually

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chatting with it with a message this morning about it. And I

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asked her as a recreational diver non technical non non pro,

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you know, what do you know about tech diving? And it's it's as

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though there's a kind of mysterious shroud and you know,

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those in the recreational that slap a tank on every weekend, I

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don't really know that much about it without delving into

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the weeds. So if you don't mind, can we delve into the weeds of

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how people would start to get into tech? And why?

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Jeffrey Glenn: It starts with a conversation with people that do

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do tech. There is a dark cloud hanging over tech at the entry

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level. People see that and they go, Oh, I can't do that. Because

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I think it's a mindset thing they look at it are too

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complicated, too challenging. We're in fact, the training

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isn't as complicated and challenging. As it seems, yes,

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it is more complex, you do have to focus more is a paradigm

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shift where you have to turn into a thinking diver, a

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proactive diver, as a record as a recreational diver you're

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you're more reactive diver. people thrive on that because

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they do put their focus more under pre empting situations and

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being prepared for them as opposed to reacting to it. So I

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think for me on Kotel, when I started my technical development

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was seeing people on dive sites with a with a set of doubles on

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their back or was sidemount. And like anything, people are

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curious, they want to know about it. Then on the boat, during the

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surface interval or after the dive, you'll see the

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recreational divers on the boat looking at you, you know, they

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want to ask questions. If they're confident they'll come

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and ask you. What are you doing? How do I start that? And they're

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usually the ones that go Yeah, I want to give it a go. So they

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come in an hour introduce themselves, and they sign up for

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the course. And that beautiful journey of technical diving

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begins for them. So that's how I found from what I experienced at

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most people start the technical. You would have seen like Andy

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Campbell on the boat or big blue with his twin set on or his side

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mount and you would have seen new dmts Looking at them going

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Oh what are you up to? I think also the rise of social media

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and seeing the photos of yourself and you know Pete

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Maszlee doing these photos and Thompson George photos. Well,

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this is epic images. Have divers in caves? Like I know Mick has

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done some wonderful photos of me on the wrecks of Malta. People

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see those images and they go oh, I want to be that guy. Because I

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remember when I started I wanted to get that selfie Amina tune

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set. So I thought the only way you're gonna get that cool

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photo, Amina twinset is if I do the course. So now it's also a

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little bit ego at play that you want to look cool on social

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media and that. So, but going back to your original question,

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I think it's more just exposure when people see it. It ignites

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that curiosity. So people ask about it. And that's how they

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start.

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Matt Waters: Yeah, yeah. There's a there's actually just you

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saying about the selfie or the photo? There's one that Miko

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took and it just springs to mind instantly. When you talk about

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it, and it's I think it's the only fact I've seen of you with

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a big ear to ear smile underwater.

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Jeffrey Glenn: Is that the one on the one? I'm on the

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shortline? Yeah, yeah.

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Matt Waters: Actually, if we go on YouTube, I'll put it here

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somewhere. Okay.

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Jeffrey Glenn: That one that was a wreck that we did on the HMS

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Olympus in Malta. Malta Historical Society had literally

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just opened up that rec to be digestible by civilians, and due

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to Mikos infamy on the Thai cave rescue, he was given the

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privilege of being one of the first teams to go down on the

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Olympus. It was British submarine at 120 metres in

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Malta, so they were just coming up from magnificent dive on on

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that. It was funny mica was just playing around with his camera

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and just coincidentally, I was just sitting above him watching

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him swear at me and finish Yeah, it took that photo and that's

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actually one of my favourite photos on myself. Yeah.

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Matt Waters: Yeah, it's a fantastic shot. Nice Well, Miko

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something that they'll finish he's just called he just got

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back to the

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Jeffrey Glenn: island that certainly certainly as we've

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made, yeah, it costs him a small fortune to get there with all

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the restrictions in place. But yeah, he's back on kotel

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teaching teaching courses again. I was just

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Matt Waters: hoping to hoping to put a visit in probably May time

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next year

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Jeffrey Glenn: Oh yeah. I'm looking at going back around the

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same time might June June July only to start the business

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interests again. There

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Matt Waters: could be quite quite

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Jeffrey Glenn: our borders are open very

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Matt Waters: well, yeah, if you're gonna do June July, I'll

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make sure I don't know that. Oliver's it

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Jeffrey Glenn: might be hard to believe that even on a good boy

00:12:44
these days, night, choppers retired.

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Matt Waters: We might introduce chopper later to Oh. Okay.

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Anyway, back to training. So those people that, you know,

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they've approached you, and they decide to come and have the chat

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and get into the tech side of things. What's, what's the

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overall benefits for those people that are going to start

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taking that first step? Yeah, good

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Jeffrey Glenn: question. Good question. The benefits of

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technical diving. I think that's the knowledge first and

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foremost, it's some knowledge that I pick up. Okay, in

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recreational diving, you don't, you don't really drill deep into

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what diving is about the psychological and physiological

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effects of diving in, in the technical introductory courses,

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you touch on that what is actually the gas doing to your

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body? How's it affecting? How do we eliminate that gas so you

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don't you delve deeper into into the knowledge base of actual

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diving to actually know what the gases that you're breathing, or

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doing as you're as you're coming up, so then when you apply that

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knowledge, you have a greater understanding of why we do it.

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Okay, and recreation of fine, this is what you do you do it.

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But in technical, we go into deeper detail. So you have a

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more intimate understanding of why we do the things that we

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actually do. So in essence, you become a safer diver.

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Matt Waters: Yes, and that's another point I wanted to raise

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actually. I think a lot of people will look at it and think

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that it's more dangerous. Getting into the technical

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realm. They think

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Jeffrey Glenn: that once they understand and have a deeper,

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deeper into minute into into intermittent knowledge of, of

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the diving, they become a safer diver. I feel much safer at 18

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metres with a double set of doubles on my back was sidemount

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than I would in a recreational setup. Yeah. Okay. And

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unfortunately, you know, you're pushed to the recreational

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you're you tick the box, you move on to the next course, or

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in technical you need to show a mastery at that level. Right

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before the instructor will allow you to go to that next level.

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Okay, which is completely different to the way the

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recreational realm is set up. So the understanding of what's

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actually happening and occurring on that dive, the planning

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involved with that. And then the execution of that dive, gives

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you more confidence as a diver gives you a more intimate

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knowledge as a diver. And the end result is you're a safer

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diver. Like I know if I'm at 80 metres with a twin seven if

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something goes wrong. So, okay, just turn my valve off, switch

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to my short hose. Okay. And then in the dive, where as you see,

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recreational diver, that catastrophic gas loss

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Unknown: on that single tank, it's like, ah, and you shoot up

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to the surface.

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Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, right. So if I have a twin cinema back,

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and I know how to operate that due to mastery of the skill of

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closing the valve down switch into my short house, signalling

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to my buddy that I have an issue, then I can just safely

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make up my way up to the surface knowing I've still got all my

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gas on my back. So just going through that challenging aspect

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of learning how to do that you will arrive at as a sales as a

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cypher diver and that's introduced you at the

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introductory courses. The very first course you'll go through

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those processes.

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Matt Waters: And you want to break down the introductory

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course

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Jeffrey Glenn: mostly of the agencies do an introductory

00:16:33
course that I teach with TDI with raid and with Paddy. It's

00:16:39
all caught so called different Lee the courses that you do, but

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basically the introductory courses is introduction to how a

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twinset works, the mechanisms of the twinset how the valve works.

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Okay, so you have a father on one side, okay, you can just

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close it, you can isolate it, okay. And then you have access

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to both cylinders, okay, manipulation of the long hose in

00:17:05
the short house, gas sharing. But I think what, what I do then

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most importantly, on the introductory courses is the

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control in the water column. Okay, understanding buoyancy

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control, understanding the six propulsion techniques to be able

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to maintain your your control in the water column, which I think

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is the most beneficial for introductory, or a technical

00:17:30
diver moving forward, having that control under the water.

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Because you'll see, you'll see a lot of recreation divers

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swimming like this, or you see a well trained technical diver

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will will have control, you know, being trim and be able to

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execute the dive in control will be able to ascend from the

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diamond control, and be able to address any problems that they

00:17:57
have in the water, but still maintain control. And then

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again, makes it safe. If you're having a gas sauce, or you're

00:18:05
having a problem on the water, and you do not have control,

00:18:08
you're either sinking greater than your depth or your pH on

00:18:12
your gas or you're ascending losing control on your ascent

00:18:16
because on the overinflating link, whereas if you have that

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control and can and manage your buoyancy, while dealing with the

00:18:24
multitude of issues that you might have to deal with, so that

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control again, you're safe. Yeah. And that's what it comes

00:18:30
down to safety.

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Matt Waters: So I'm just picking up on something you said a few

00:18:35
minutes ago. Recreate recreational is ticking boxes,

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as long as you can do the skills and you're competent, you're

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meant to be it's meant to be mastery. Mastery is a it's I

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think it's a looser, it's a very short, because it is my idea

00:18:54
Jeffrey Glenn: of mastery would be completely different to a

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recreational divers mastery. Definition. That's

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Matt Waters: the point. That's the that's leading me to the

00:19:01
next question is that if you have a customer that you're

00:19:06
teaching, and they tick the boxes, per se, but you're still

00:19:12
uncomfortable with that individual and signing them off,

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can you not? Can you hold off of signing them off through your

00:19:18
own experience and thoughts on on how they are in the water?

00:19:21
Jeffrey Glenn: Yes in in technical diving. And I believe

00:19:25
it should be the same in recreational. But in technical

00:19:28
diving, we do you have the luxury of not certifying the

00:19:34
diver if they do not meet the requirements required. So I have

00:19:40
had divers who haven't met the performance requirements to my

00:19:47
satisfaction that even though I've had interns with me, I've

00:19:52
asked them the question, How did you think they went either went

00:19:54
well, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I would disagree with you there.

00:19:59
This diver We'll have to spend another another day with me in

00:20:03
the water. And that days will be continuous until they meet the

00:20:08
requirements. And I find most technical divers or most

00:20:13
students who are moving into the technical realm are quite

00:20:16
comfortable with that if they need more training. I'm usually

00:20:21
brutally honest with them. You haven't met requirements as yet.

00:20:24
I would like you to have another day, Jeff, and I promise this

00:20:28
because they want to be better. Yeah.

00:20:30
Matt Waters: And let's face it, I mean, the worst thing that

00:20:32
comes out of it as you get an extra day a diving

00:20:36
Jeffrey Glenn: and usually met, that's all they need. Hey, yeah.

00:20:39
Because what happens on those on that final day, that evaluation

00:20:43
day? This gets away on them. Yeah. And they overcomplicate

00:20:48
it, they overanalyze it, and they get anxious. And it's

00:20:52
usually up here. That fear up here that that usually leads to

00:20:57
them not having the day they wish for. So once they get

00:21:01
through that day, the next day is usually a little bit better

00:21:03
because they they've gotten through the previous day. It

00:21:07
hasn't worked for them. They know what's expected of them.

00:21:11
Okay, and they usually meet it with foreign colours right the

00:21:13
next day. Yeah. It's just that time in the water.

00:21:18
Matt Waters: It is it's an experience, isn't it? You're

00:21:20
getting relaxed with it.

00:21:21
Jeffrey Glenn: It is. It is and as you know, from the

00:21:22
recreational some of in kotel made that you're, you've got

00:21:29
time pressure on you. Right, people come in on the holiday

00:21:34
with a backpack on they got three and a half days into their

00:21:36
f1 watercourse, you know, deep down that maybe they haven't met

00:21:40
their requirements, that because he got pressure from the from

00:21:44
the dye shop from the shoot it, you tick that box and you move

00:21:47
them on?

00:21:48
Matt Waters: Yeah, yeah.

00:21:51
Jeffrey Glenn: Those students who then come on to the

00:21:53
technical training, you really got to let them know that it's,

00:21:58
it's not a time based it's performance based evaluation

00:22:02
criteria. And if they haven't met the requirements, they will

00:22:05
need to have another day with me another two days.

00:22:09
Matt Waters: And I think it's fair to say as well, and correct

00:22:11
me if I'm wrong, but I think from what I've seen over the

00:22:13
years, and you know, watching the likes of Richard Divini

00:22:15
teaching, it's a much more intimate teaching style at

00:22:20
smaller groups. And, you know, well away from the madding crowd

00:22:23
and more focused as, as you will expect. More Yeah, it is, it

00:22:30
appears more intimate, more, more controlled.

00:22:34
Jeffrey Glenn: It is it's as a as an instructor, you know, who

00:22:38
teaches courses, who teaches, you know, advanced tronics

00:22:42
rebreather courses, you are very intimate with your student,

00:22:47
you're at 100 metres, you're, you're on top of them, you're

00:22:50
pretty much writing them. You're there, you're watching

00:22:53
everything that they do. You're You're delving deep into their

00:22:57
soul. They're at 100 metres, something goes wrong, you're

00:23:00
like, as close to this monitor, as we are now to their eyes,

00:23:04
you're, you're seeing what they're thinking in their eyes.

00:23:07
So after you've both gone through that experience

00:23:11
together, you're you're quite intimate, and it's actually

00:23:15
forms really strong friendships. With insurance, you know, you're

00:23:19
not the why, why is it that when I'm teaching my students, I'm

00:23:23
not just teaching insurance, I'm teaching future dive buddies for

00:23:26
myself. Because I'm, I'm teaching them utilising every

00:23:31
resource that I've got with the hope that they'll come and join

00:23:34
me on my expeditions and my exploration projects later,

00:23:38
because the more on my mindset I can die with. Here I am. The

00:23:43
more people that I can get into technical diving, and show them

00:23:47
what I'm fortunate enough to see, you know, and what

00:23:52
technical diving has given me the opportunity to see the more

00:23:55
people that can see that the more love tech technical diving,

00:23:59
there'll be out there. Yeah, it's quite intimate. It is quite

00:24:02
intimate. It's one on one and it's a it's a complete paradigm

00:24:05
shift from recreation with technical. You know, it's such a

00:24:09
such a higher level of skill that's required to be a

00:24:13
competent diver.

00:24:14
Matt Waters: Yeah, you know, and that's, and that's not saying,

00:24:17
you know, people who are listening to this now, it's not

00:24:19
a it's not a scary level. I mean, you're taken from point A,

00:24:24
as a recreational diver to point B as a new technical diver, and

00:24:30
your your puppy walked all the way epsilon so that they've got

00:24:34
that that surely and that comfort.

00:24:37
Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, absolutely. It's a step by step progress.

00:24:39
You know, it's like, the Japanese business will also the

00:24:42
Kaizen the Kaizen way to build by Robert Moore and something I

00:24:46
apply with a lot of my different aspects of life, just baby

00:24:50
steps, achievable steps. So, then you arrive at the big

00:24:54
picture with that foundation there. You know, so it is a step

00:24:59
by step progress. You know, if, if day two of the technical

00:25:02
diving course, is unsuccessful, then we do day two again. Yeah.

00:25:07
And the second day of day two is unsuccessful, then we do day two

00:25:11
again, before we go to day three, and so on. So by the time

00:25:15
they get to that safe 45 metre certification point, they're

00:25:20
competent. Right? And the only time I signed them off is like,

00:25:27
Am I comfortable? With this person? By themselves at 45

00:25:31
metres? Yes, I am done, you certified. And it is a step by

00:25:35
step progress. And it's a great journey. It's a rewarding

00:25:38
journey. Because there's gonna be times where you're like, What

00:25:42
am I doing? Usually by the end of it when you get to experience

00:25:46
that record 45 metres for 25 minutes and you've taken some

00:25:50
Instagram shots in our daughter and you've come up and you've

00:25:53
just done a dive which you've doubted yourself on and you've

00:25:56
come up just buzzing that confidence level of the dive,

00:25:59
which is gone sky high. That yeah, it is a step by step walk,

00:26:03
walk with baby step progress through to that point.

00:26:09
Matt Waters: And that so that first the introduction to tech,

00:26:14
that's going to be doubles whose doubles the, the start of

00:26:18
everything.

00:26:20
Jeffrey Glenn: My my look on is that I prefer to start with

00:26:24
doubles, because because that's how technical diving started.

00:26:28
Okay, all right. I know there's a lot of energy these days for

00:26:32
sidemount. So yes, you can do that introductory on sidemount.

00:26:37
But I prefer to do it on twin sets on doubles. Okay,

00:26:43
Matt Waters: so because what I'm what I'm angling at is, you

00:26:46
know, just thinking back to that discussion with the missus this

00:26:49
morning that that, that dark cover unless you delve into, you

00:26:54
know, a particular instructor when you're searching out to do

00:26:57
tech dive and you don't really know the route through the

00:27:01
ranking structure as it were the development structure. So you

00:27:05
know, I picked up on the the twin sets that you're talking

00:27:08
about on the doubles, but sidemount so it can be an it can

00:27:11
be an option that the student wants to follow? Or is it a

00:27:15
preference from the instructor side of the house,

00:27:18
Jeffrey Glenn: a assignment instructor will always push

00:27:21
aside now. Older school, chiselled salty sea dog might go

00:27:29
a set of doubles. But for me, a well rounded technical

00:27:34
instructor needs to be proficient in both sidemount or

00:27:38
Batman and switch seamlessly between the two. So if your

00:27:45
lovely lady came up and said, Jeff, I want to start my

00:27:48
technical diving route. I'd be comfortable saying which tool

00:27:52
would you prefer to use first, side mount or back mount. The

00:27:57
reason I like to do the back mount is anything really beyond

00:28:02
the 50 metre mark sidemount becomes a little bit more of a

00:28:07
challenge because of the singular tanks. Yeah, with all

00:28:11
your gas on the back, it allows a little bit more freedom at the

00:28:14
front is one gun to 5060 metres plus, I got five cylinders at

00:28:19
the front of me on site about so it becomes a little bit more

00:28:22
challenging. So when people come to me and ask they want to do

00:28:26
tech, I say what's your end goal? Is it caves? Is it 100

00:28:29
metres? Is it? Is it this or is it that and using that

00:28:33
information that they've answered that question on then

00:28:36
I'd say okay, this is what we're going to do. This is what I

00:28:38
recommend that we do. Okay?

00:28:41
Matt Waters: So the route through to the end goal can be

00:28:44
structured bespoke almost,

00:28:49
Jeffrey Glenn: pretty much, pretty much and how I used to

00:28:52
structure things on Kotel was they would come to me I'll do an

00:28:55
introduction. I will do technical days with my dmts just

00:29:01
take all the all the toys up to the swimming pool, and then it

00:29:04
gives them an opportunity to play with the sidemount play

00:29:07
with the doubles and play with my reboot this that I found that

00:29:12
I probably 70% of the students that wanted to start their

00:29:16
technical would like to do sitemap first. So if they come

00:29:20
into me to do the entry level of tech than the 45 metre tech and

00:29:24
then the extended range Tech, we will do the sidemount through

00:29:29
the 45 metres okay where I have my son about cylinders plus one

00:29:33
decompression cylinder and then I would veer over and do my

00:29:38
extended range training on on a set of doubles. Set of doubles

00:29:43
with with the 50% engine and yeah 100% And now they've just

00:29:49
done the entry level basic tech to 55 metres, which is the

00:29:53
extended range and now they're comfortable on both side mount

00:29:57
and back mount. Now they've got that practical experience to

00:30:01
draw from, they can then decide which route they want to

00:30:04
specialise in, or their future training. Yeah. So give them the

00:30:10
opportunity to do both. Yeah.

00:30:13
Matt Waters: So you got your, your students, you know, they've

00:30:18
got their 55 ticket was an extended range and

00:30:21
Jeffrey Glenn: yeah, I use the extended range. With TDI, it's

00:30:25
extended range with, with raid, it's the rage 60 programme. And

00:30:31
with Patti, it's the tech 50 programme.

00:30:35
Matt Waters: Now, a lot of people that in the recreational

00:30:39
side of the house, one of the one of the most common things I

00:30:42
hear when, you know, tech diving comes up. Is that the phrase of

00:30:48
why go so deep? What's the point? What is the point

00:30:52
Jeffrey Glenn: exploration? Curiosity? scientific reasons.

00:31:00
Matt Waters: Okay, I've been involved at a few of the

00:31:01
scientific things now. Yeah, a few of

00:31:03
Jeffrey Glenn: them. The plan was pre COVID was to get more

00:31:09
involved with major project Foundation, mathematic. Cardos

00:31:15
gonna be one of the divers with Matt. In fact, we just finished

00:31:20
Matt's cross over onto the JJ he did his course with me down at

00:31:25
kills we sinkhole and Gambia just recently with the objective

00:31:30
to utilise the JJ for some of the scientific projects that he

00:31:34
had in Trump lagoon bikini on the rec set. Yeah, so a lot of

00:31:38
the reasons people want to go deeper is it's for that very

00:31:42
purpose is some cool stuff down BP, it's you'll find that a lot

00:31:50
a lot of there's a lot of wrecks between the 60 to 40 metre range

00:31:53
that you just can't access as a recreational diver. Some of the

00:31:59
sinkholes around the world go a little bit deeper, so you can't

00:32:03
push the exploration and bypass those deeper sections. You need

00:32:08
to be trained in decompression procedures to be able to access

00:32:13
those passages to continue the exploration and also other

00:32:16
scientific projects on the marine life and the reef

00:32:19
ecosystem. That for example, Mark was doing in in Indonesia,

00:32:27
some of the scientific projects he was doing in the 80 to 100

00:32:30
metre range on the reefs into the back of the north there. So

00:32:38
there's a lot of projects and a lot of scientific research and a

00:32:41
lot of exploration out there on those deeper areas. So having

00:32:46
the skills necessary to access that part safely. is obviously

00:32:53
why people move into technical diving.

00:32:57
Matt Waters: So let's touch back on safety as well. I make no

00:33:01
bones about it. I think there's a lot of recreational divers out

00:33:05
there that become blase and overconfident when they dive in

00:33:09
particularly shore dives because it's just shallow and I see far

00:33:14
too many people that just go solo diving that haven't got any

00:33:17
backup supplies there's no buddies no not no assistance at

00:33:21
all. I think it's bloody ridiculous but I do want to

00:33:27
touch on raid and the tuition and rec recreational raid. I I

00:33:36
am impressed with the way that the recreational road system

00:33:39
works when it's taught properly. Again, it all comes down to the

00:33:43
instructors that are available to provide it but I also think

00:33:46
it gives a good lead into the technical aspect because it is

00:33:50
tech minded Are you allowed to agree disagree without without

00:33:55
pissing off Paddy and TDI?

00:33:59
Jeffrey Glenn: My my thoughts is this when I enter a course and

00:34:02
teach, there's great things that party do. There's great things

00:34:06
that TDI do there's great things that Ray do there's great things

00:34:10
that gee we do so I'm having an intimate knowledge of each of

00:34:14
the different agencies systems are utilised all those tools and

00:34:18
present them to my divers right. So at this point in time I'm not

00:34:23
single agency affiliated but I'll use all of them. I'm in it

00:34:27
for Patti right and TDI and they all have great systems that are

00:34:31
utilise

00:34:33
Matt Waters: till you can to make up pick the exactly suffer

00:34:36
exactly to

00:34:36
Jeffrey Glenn: make the effort and make my students the best

00:34:39
they can be at that level of certification. So I like the

00:34:46
RAID system because it borrows heavily from the technical

00:34:50
realm. Okay with foundational skills, holding holding the

00:34:57
position in the water column while dealing With a basic skill

00:35:01
of moss removal and replacement, they can do that while holding

00:35:05
neutral buoyancy. I'll get back to my days as a recreational

00:35:11
instructor going back 20 years. On dive three of the open water

00:35:16
course mat, we would swim around twins, it's time for them to

00:35:20
remove their mask, we would go and find a nice sandy spot would

00:35:25
all go and kneel down on the sand, hold each other's hand

00:35:28
keep the group tight, and one by one would go to them and get

00:35:32
them to remove the mask. Does that sound familiar? Met?

00:35:35
Matt Waters: Hang on. Okay.

00:35:37
Jeffrey Glenn: So my issue with doing it that way is that once

00:35:40
that diver is certified, they're going to jump on pinnacle for a

00:35:44
fungi, they're 18 metres, and their mask gets watery. They

00:35:50
need to take it off, what is their default setting then go

00:35:55
and find a sandy spot to kneel down to remove and replace the

00:35:58
mask. There's no sandy spot at shump on Pinnacle at 80 metres,

00:36:03
the nearest sandy spot is 30 Is that safe? So what Ray does is

00:36:10
spent more time in the confined mastering the ability to

00:36:15
maintain your integrity in midwater, while doing a very

00:36:20
basic skill of mass removal and replacement. They do that in

00:36:24
confined they're not doing to our confined sessions to

00:36:27
conflict. They're getting the student to master that. So that

00:36:30
means three hour four hour five hour confined session. If not

00:36:34
all day confined sessions. It makes Di Di wanted to dive three

00:36:39
and four. So much easier for the student and the instructor

00:36:42
because they've been developed with a technical mindset that

00:36:47
they can hold that position. Yeah, right. So when they do

00:36:51
submit eight Emmys at some point all masters got some modern on

00:36:54
edge removal and replacement. They have the confidence in

00:36:58
their ability to stay in that position and do that skill

00:37:03
without jeopardising the safety. And that's why I think RAID is a

00:37:09
is predominantly leaving the quality of training with with

00:37:14
some of the agents that OTT is doing it. Now, some of the guys

00:37:18
that Patti are following suit as well, because they're just

00:37:21
seeing that it can be done. It just means the instructor needs

00:37:25
to spend a little bit more quality time with the students

00:37:30
in the confined water training, that means minimising the

00:37:34
ratios. So instead of teaching eight to one like I did for so

00:37:38
many years, minimise that to four to one. So then you can

00:37:42
have that intimate relationship that we discussed previously

00:37:45
that a technical diver has had that with the recreational

00:37:48
diver, why not? Let's teach four to one concentrate more on those

00:37:53
fundamentals or those foundational skills and they're

00:37:57
going to be a better safer diver.

00:38:00
Matt Waters: Was that your phone?

00:38:02
Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, I'll turn it off. Sorry, brother.

00:38:04
Matt Waters: That's a case of beer you

00:38:09
Jeffrey Glenn: so every time the bell rings, I need to give you a

00:38:11
case of beer.

00:38:14
Matt Waters: Shoppers bar is going to be

00:38:20
few days. So what's what's what's next, after the 55 You

00:38:28
know, if someone's got out the confidence about the skills,

00:38:31
what are they going to start looking towards

00:38:36
Jeffrey Glenn: you find a lot of divers may not want to go any

00:38:38
further. Okay, they've got the necessary skills, whether it be

00:38:43
side mount or set of doubles to stay in that 40 to 60 metre

00:38:48
range. I mean that that's a magnificent depth 40 to 60

00:38:53
metres you get to see so much more opens up more more doorways

00:38:58
to more adventure for you that you know if you do wish to go on

00:39:04
then then we usually have a quite detailed discussion

00:39:09
whether it wants to be open circuit or remain an open

00:39:13
circuit or we transition into rebreather right. So beyond the

00:39:20
the extended range, which is the you know, the 40 to 60 metre

00:39:24
depth, that discussion so there needs to be needs to be

00:39:28
prominent in the thought process because there's a big difference

00:39:32
right. Moving on to the open circuit. You have the skills in

00:39:38
place already to easy execute 100 metre, again, it's baby

00:39:42
steps 200 metres. There's a lot of training dives and execution

00:39:48
of training dogs before we hit that magical 100 metre mark.

00:39:53
That then if we decide to transition to rebreathers it's a

00:39:58
complete paradigm shift. You Whoever you are, you have to

00:40:01
accept that you're basically going back to square one. And

00:40:05
restart your training again. So if someone comes to me, they're

00:40:11
certified to the extended range of 40 to 60 metres, and they

00:40:16
want to progress. Then I'll sit down and say, right, these are

00:40:19
the these are the options, we can say on open circuit. Or we

00:40:24
can prep progress into rebreathers.

00:40:27
Matt Waters: Now, on the rebreather, front, let's start

00:40:31
talking rebreathers are pretty damn sexy. And, yeah, we're now

00:40:36
getting into the expensive realms. There's a lot of

00:40:39
advantages now. The to get onto a rebreather to learn how to use

00:40:45
a rebreather. Do they have to go through all of the precursors,

00:40:50
the intro to tech that doubles the size of out all that kind

00:40:52
of? Or is there a direct route? To rebreathers?

00:40:58
Jeffrey Glenn: Good question, Matt. Good question. This is an

00:41:03
ongoing debate amongst agencies amongst instructors from

00:41:10
different agencies. Yes, there is a direct route. Yes, you can

00:41:15
go straight onto what they call a recreational rebreather and

00:41:18
start your entry into tech using a rebreather. Or you can go the

00:41:24
open circuit route to extended range and then progress over.

00:41:30
Okay. Depending on the instructor, okay, some

00:41:34
instructors, it may be financially advantageous to them

00:41:38
to suggest the rebreather early on, because they may have a

00:41:42
student who wishes to buy the rebreather straight away. All

00:41:45
right, they may be an instructor who would rather just to

00:41:48
conflict, get them through, get them through the door. Okay. But

00:41:54
then you may have instructors who wish for the student that

00:41:56
have the fundamental skills in place. Understand what potency

00:42:01
is understanding what the gas is doing to see that student has a

00:42:08
it's developed that situational awareness and is comfortable at

00:42:12
those depths before over tasking them with the intricacies of the

00:42:18
rebreather at those depths. So coming from, from my experience,

00:42:24
when I'm having these discussions with my students,

00:42:27
and they wish to proceed under rebreathers, I always get them

00:42:30
to go to extended range level on open circuit. Because once

00:42:37
they're comfortable at 50 metres on a twin set, and then nailing

00:42:42
and executing every single dive and they're relaxed, and they're

00:42:45
coming up and they're just buzzing, then I say you're ready

00:42:48
to move on to rebreathers. If if there are 50 and they're all

00:42:53
over the place that buoyancy is not in point they're not.

00:42:56
They're not having good team communication, their awareness

00:42:59
is is minimal. That I'm gonna do there's no way that I will allow

00:43:04
you to go to 50 minutes on a river either. Yeah, because it's

00:43:07
just a whole nother level.

00:43:10
Matt Waters: Is that one of the dangers as to you know, if

00:43:12
someone's certified to 50 open circuit. When we go over to

00:43:18
rebreather, is it does the the debts qualification debts reset?

00:43:24
Or are they automatically allowed to use a rebreather down

00:43:27
of 50.

00:43:30
Jeffrey Glenn: So though, they will need to go through the

00:43:32
steps on the rebreather, so if they're, for example, a Arade

00:43:38
60. diver, then they would need to start as a rebreather 40

00:43:44
diver first and get the hours up before they can then move on to

00:43:49
the next programme. So it's not like a like for like

00:43:53
certification.

00:43:54
Matt Waters: Good, good. I'm just trying to draw out all of

00:43:58
the thoughts that go through my head and probably someone like

00:44:02
the message

00:44:03
Jeffrey Glenn: as well. So for me, for me going through the

00:44:05
processes of the open circuit journey. You've you mastered the

00:44:11
point C, and then understanding the trim the propulsion

00:44:15
techniques, and the awareness of what's going on around you.

00:44:20
Okay, so those skills are sort of squared away, and you've got

00:44:24
them in your pocket already. You then transition onto a

00:44:27
rebreather. The initial course the entry level rebreather

00:44:31
course is all about the unit. Understanding the intricacies

00:44:38
and and the intimate details of how the actual machine works.

00:44:45
Okay, knowing that you have the foundational skills already.

00:44:48
Okay, I'm not teaching you a rebreather and buoyancy

00:44:52
rebreather, and how to do a back kick or a helicopter turn.

00:44:56
Because you have that already. I'm just focusing on the

00:44:59
rebreather. then knowing that you have those skills already

00:45:02
those foundational skills in your pocket already, and when

00:45:06
you can just pull them out.

00:45:08
Matt Waters: Yeah. And this is where you've got particular

00:45:11
qualifications for a particular rebreather, because they've all

00:45:14
got their own systems.

00:45:15
Jeffrey Glenn: Exactly, exactly. So if you're, if you choose the

00:45:20
JJ CCF, then we just focus solely on the JJ CCR. And then

00:45:25
you might go through the entry level JJ course, then you go

00:45:29
into the mix gas course. And then you go into the advanced

00:45:33
mix gas course. And then if you wish to move over and transition

00:45:37
on to the X CCR, you have to do a crossover programme onto the

00:45:42
CCR. So it's like a five or six day crossover programme,

00:45:47
understanding the intricacies of that particular unit. Because

00:45:52
the electronic system may be different, the heads up display

00:45:55
may be different, the way that you bail out and do a deal you

00:46:00
won't flush may be different or will be different on each of the

00:46:03
different rebreathers. So just because you have a rebreather

00:46:07
certification on a particular unit doesn't mean that you can

00:46:10
dive every single unit

00:46:13
Matt Waters: suppose it's like passing the test on the mini and

00:46:15
jumping in a Lambo.

00:46:16
Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, you need to understand how cars work exactly.

00:46:20
Matt Waters: And let's, let's back it up a little bit.

00:46:23
rebreathers people that are interested, curious, scared of

00:46:31
what's the word let's let's have a bit of an overview on the

00:46:34
advantages of a rebreather over an open

00:46:36
Jeffrey Glenn: circuit. Okay, time, time, time time. Okay, so

00:46:42
you have time on a unit you have the time on the unit. Usually,

00:46:48
if something goes wrong and open circuit, you don't have much

00:46:50
time, because you lose in your gas. Right? If something goes

00:46:55
wrong on the unit, which is very, very rare. All you do is

00:46:59
look at your handset. And if the gas that you're breathing is a

00:47:03
safe gas, then you have the time to go okay, I guess I'm

00:47:08
breathing a safe, What's my problem? Then you can analyse

00:47:13
the steps to isolate what your problem is. Okay, diagnose that,

00:47:19
and work out your solution. So allows you time what else you're

00:47:22
doing. So that for me is a big thing. It's a little bit more

00:47:26
relaxed. And then

00:47:29
Matt Waters: the no bubbles thing is a bit yeah, I know

00:47:33
sounds a little bit. But it's now it's true. If you're a true

00:47:36
if you're into the photography, then having zero bubbles coming

00:47:40
out, you're gonna get so much closer to the species you're

00:47:43
trying to live a

00:47:44
Jeffrey Glenn: will make some believe. I remember when I

00:47:46
started my journey on the rebreather, and I was getting up

00:47:50
my hours. And I was on Southwest and catalysis was pinnacle. And

00:47:57
I was just off the pinnacle at 30 metres just looking at my

00:48:01
handset just playing around and I just remember looking at once

00:48:05
and I had the yellowtail Barracuda like you know,

00:48:10
hundreds of them just like literally that far away from me.

00:48:13
And I got I was a little little shot with a little girl put my

00:48:18
hands but I was just so Oh, wow, they're so close to me. And the

00:48:24
fact that I was just so silent I was just became one of one in

00:48:28
their environment. So they're just gone. It was just thinking

00:48:32
black, they just come very close to me. And if I had him on

00:48:35
camera, then that would have been would have been also would

00:48:37
have got some great shots. But yeah, just leading into what you

00:48:41
said as a photographer. And you'll see some of the world's

00:48:44
leading photographers. They also happen to be rebreather divers

00:48:48
as well don't they? Yeah. So it's it's a it's a wonderful

00:48:51
tool for that avenue of underwater photography.

00:48:57
Definitely.

00:48:58
Matt Waters: And you can use rebreathers to maximum depths or

00:49:03
unlimited

00:49:03
Jeffrey Glenn: unlit unlimited unlimited on recovery. This

00:49:08
depends on your help or to your limited I mean my my brag a

00:49:17
little bit here, but I was part of the team for will Goodman

00:49:22
when he did 300 metres on out of the box. JJ CCR. He went to 300

00:49:29
overseas deep support diver. So yeah, the the depth of it on the

00:49:32
rebreathers are unlimited, but obviously, you know, we'll have

00:49:36
10 years rebreather experience under his belt before he

00:49:39
executed successfully that dive. But yeah, there is a there is

00:49:43
it's not a depth limit on rebreathers.

00:49:45
Matt Waters: I'm going to pick up on that the diver itself. At

00:49:50
what point at what depth did he end up being on his own?

00:49:57
Jeffrey Glenn: Why the why that dog went on the date mat was we,

00:50:03
we had planned it after a month of training together for that

00:50:09
day we went down by himself. And then when he hit his mark, he

00:50:17
started coming up and we timed it that I then went down with

00:50:22
Simon lydiate. So we'd meet him as he was ascending and then we

00:50:27
were coming down so he probably spent close to 15 minutes by

00:50:35
himself before I got ahold of you maybe 20 minutes I was

00:50:39
waiting within 20 minutes obviously set

00:50:43
Matt Waters: and I was having a quick look at some articles this

00:50:47
morning actually, and he was saying that I was computers and

00:50:51
whatnot just maxed out at like 250 or something

00:50:54
Jeffrey Glenn: yeah to add they went out but then they came back

00:50:57
in now to 90 So if you have a look some of the imagery from

00:51:02
his record will record that his is handset from his JJ maxed out

00:51:09
at 290 but once we uploaded the data the data into the shoe what

00:51:14
a software we're able to see the the actual lines it just stopped

00:51:20
recording on the interface, but the actual depths was recorded

00:51:24
on the actual software. Yeah, the the one the one that

00:51:28
actually worked was his $100 Scuba pro depth bottom of depth

00:51:35
timer so that was still working for him. It was able to make

00:51:39
sure that that's using using that tool.

00:51:45
Matt Waters: Brilliant. You are Shearwater diver yourself

00:51:49
Jeffrey Glenn: see anyone I rarely use my I am I started

00:51:54
using OSTC computers initially but first one failed second one

00:52:02
failed third one as soldered on. And at this time she was just

00:52:06
getting a little bit energy about the summer initial she

00:52:09
would have purchased as one of those big bulky petrels that

00:52:14
obviously they streamline them down to what you see today but

00:52:19
yeah, are you she What is she what a Perdix is my go to open

00:52:25
circuit computer and also on my JJ on my SCCR and on my SF two

00:52:33
rebreathers a Shearwater petrol twos it's it's pretty much the

00:52:40
only computer that I would recommend or you recommend them

00:52:44
I recommend them due to the fact that they've always worked for

00:52:47
me 20 years of technical diving they've never let me down so

00:52:51
that's why I recommend them there's other good computers out

00:52:53
there but for me it's it's only ever going to issue what

00:52:57
Matt Waters: I did I did the jump over in fact the logo on

00:53:01
the on the podcast cover is the Tarik oh look at you

00:53:10
Jeffrey Glenn: issuing a brace and seeking Vichy water model my

00:53:13
friend

00:53:15
Matt Waters: Yeah, this old guy needs a sponsorship

00:53:21
Jeffrey Glenn: what must you have on there?

00:53:23
Matt Waters: Oh that's that's an aqualen ego and me Jeff this is

00:53:27
obviously I made them made the mistake last weekend we went

00:53:33
camping I'll put I'll put the beach just an hour and a half

00:53:37
north of here and lovely weekend. But I took me took me

00:53:41
jet fins with me in the boats just that I took out onto the

00:53:45
onto the shoreline there because I've just got upgraded my camera

00:53:49
gear and the Ikelite and the eight inch dome port and I

00:53:52
thought I'll give it a go on some half and half shots. We'll

00:53:55
check the water conditions First I got him with the the jet fins

00:53:58
on Have you ever tried snorkelling with jet fins

00:54:01
doesn't work my mate I might as well just go and do 10 squats in

00:54:05
the gym with 100 kilos on your back

00:54:07
Jeffrey Glenn: on your feet underwater might were not very

00:54:13
effective on the surface.

00:54:14
Matt Waters: Oh no. Yeah, well, I'm leaving here today and I'm

00:54:17
heading down to a drain I'm just gonna pick up some I don't

00:54:21
actually move Auntie Quattros or something for the for the

00:54:23
snorkelling next time we go camping

00:54:24
Jeffrey Glenn: and I severity Quattros there. That's one of

00:54:27
the Morris fins that I would recommend for tech. Yeah. Good

00:54:32
night.

00:54:33
Matt Waters: I was just I was teaching them all the time

00:54:35
before I got these ones.

00:54:36
Jeffrey Glenn: So I had a bright yellow pair of any contracts.

00:54:40
Then I moved over to the RMS things but yeah, the Jets fans

00:54:42
made they they were like that was sort of life changing for me

00:54:46
once we got into the tech. It's so important to have an

00:54:49
effective thin because you propulsion is can either make or

00:54:54
break a knife. Yeah, definitely potion techniques and making

00:54:59
sure you have the right means to get the propulsion that you

00:55:01
need, whether it be a delicate back kick, or you know, a

00:55:07
powerful frog kick, you know, you need good fins. So yeah, it

00:55:12
doesn't happen at the surface.

00:55:14
Matt Waters: At the surface, you're just an elephant with

00:55:22
Jeffrey Glenn: she was speedos on.

00:55:24
Matt Waters: Oh, yeah. Let's get back into the tech side of

00:55:29
things. What's just picking up you're saying that you're gonna

00:55:32
be heading back out to Thailand, hopefully next year? What's the

00:55:37
what's the plans? You're going to you're going to get back out

00:55:39
to teaching?

00:55:40
Jeffrey Glenn: Ah, yeah, I'm sort of 5050 on that at the

00:55:46
moment. I think I think what I what I have to do is commit to

00:55:52
the projects that we had planned, pre COVID. One of those

00:55:57
projects with was with Miko with our NGO bottom line projects.

00:56:03
And because later off, we will be photogrammetry in the, the

00:56:12
USS was about the overhang on the garden. So if they'd have

00:56:21
that bit out there, we'll be doing some survey work for the

00:56:25
US Department of Defence for the USS legato. Last April was the

00:56:30
75th anniversary of it sinking. Where is that one legato? It's

00:56:36
in the Gulf of Thailand, just off Malaysia. So it's a

00:56:41
submarine USS like other submarine that was sunk in the

00:56:45
war during World War Two bond by the Japanese.

00:56:51
Matt Waters: Just watching you're tapping on the dash

00:56:53
there, Jeff is picking up on your mic. So you live in a Steve

00:56:56
vessel. He was doing the same last two

00:56:57
Jeffrey Glenn: days. But so. So a couple of the Kotel boys found

00:57:03
that funny enough they got in touch with the powers that be in

00:57:10
the US and they were like snow, a couple of the boys from Kotel

00:57:14
was found that wreck that we've been looking for for 50 is so

00:57:18
they went back out, dropped down, grabbed the belt, took the

00:57:22
photos, and sent it back to him gone, we found a boy with within

00:57:27
a day, they sent out a ship from one of their, one of the naval

00:57:32
bases in Singapore, and met them on site. They sent their divers

00:57:36
down to confirm the fight. And okay, we found it. This is the

00:57:40
one so it actually gave a lot of closure to the families of the

00:57:45
sailors that are on that wreck. So last April was the 75th

00:57:49
anniversary of the sinking of that. So we had given given the

00:57:53
rights and the authority to do some photogrammetry on the wreck

00:58:00
and also put a plaque in memory of the gentleman that found it

00:58:04
and also put up the American flag back on to the bow. So I

00:58:09
think because of COVID that obviously was put on pause so

00:58:14
there was been remnants or Miko, Eric, Eric Brown and myself that

00:58:18
we're going to be the divers on that project with a with some

00:58:22
support from like Prince, he has them and Timmy Lawrence and that

00:58:26
sort of thing. So I think we're gonna go and do that. Also got a

00:58:29
couple of projects to do in Croatia and Italy, with Patrick

00:58:33
Whitman, and some of the boys that are based over there. And

00:58:39
maybe even head back to Mexico as well for a little bit a

00:58:42
little bit on the case. Right before I think about settling

00:58:47
somewhere in teaching for a while, even though it'd be

00:58:50
teaching in those those areas. I think I just need to get my

00:58:54
diver mojo back on the NAS. Got some

00:58:58
Matt Waters: fantastic shots in in the sonotubes until I'm done.

00:59:03
Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, unfortunately, those are some

00:59:05
really cool people over there. Gotta got a lot of might say

00:59:09
that, that are currently diving every day putting up photos on

00:59:13
social media. Joe makes him extremely jealous and envious,

00:59:17
that we're in Alcatraz and can't go anywhere. That yeah, I'll be

00:59:21
heading back there's a lot of good people over there in Mexico

00:59:23
a lot of good people there in Europe that that attacked I was

00:59:26
in the beauty of the technical community that it's it's very

00:59:29
welcoming and very small that you get to know a lot of people

00:59:32
very quickly. And it's it's a wonderful opportunity and

00:59:37
lifestyle. And being a technical divers, you know, opened up so

00:59:42
many different doorways throughout the world of

00:59:44
different places that you can dive where you get to meet all

00:59:46
these really cool interesting people as well. So yeah, I think

00:59:50
Matt Waters: we stayed. We did was just before the year before

00:59:54
COVID message did five weeks through Galapagus and backup

01:00:00
Claire and yeah,

01:00:01
Jeffrey Glenn: they're ex military as well met. So yeah,

01:00:04
connection there is. I remember you. You sent me a Facebook

01:00:09
message. You sent me a little video of yourself. I just wrote

01:00:13
rubbing it in while I was on the beach. Now I remember that Yeah,

01:00:20
yeah, it's amazing place over there. Amazing. Yeah.

01:00:23
Matt Waters: I mean, we were only there for what, three or

01:00:25
four days. But it was certainly interesting. For me being, you

01:00:30
know, photo geek, I was more interested in the entry and exit

01:00:34
points, because there was lights. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

01:00:37
But the pit was just simply fantastic.

01:00:40
Jeffrey Glenn: How good are those photos of people in those

01:00:42
light race? Just looking back here?

01:00:46
Matt Waters: Well, those those ones that was talking about the

01:00:48
ones that you're in, you've got the salad tights and the style

01:00:52
of mites. And, you know, you've clearly the team have put their

01:00:57
strobes in place so that they flash off at the right time. But

01:01:01
they're just, they're awesome.

01:01:02
Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, that's right. The divers, the divers

01:01:06
said, I'm with you know, SJ Bennett. Thompson George.

01:01:12
Matt Waters: I'm not in I don't know that.

01:01:14
Jeffrey Glenn: Yeah, they're on social media, they have

01:01:17
fantastic photos, you know, a lot of them use video lights,

01:01:21
actually, they don't use the stripes, because they know the

01:01:25
passages they're swimming through from previous previous

01:01:29
dives. So they're quite intimate with those those areas. So then

01:01:33
they pause the model, they set up the video lights where they

01:01:37
need to, and then they get the model to swim through that

01:01:41
section. Yeah, so they're very, very intimate with those areas.

01:01:45
So it's, you know, very safe and know exactly, you know, the

01:01:49
compass bearing of the cave, the where the lines running. So the

01:01:53
very safe there. So

01:01:55
Matt Waters: speaking of safety and cave tours, we're touching

01:01:58
on caves. And harping back to talking about the intimacy of

01:02:03
training. I think Lani and Claire have their setup is good

01:02:10
as a good example of what I'm trying to explain there because

01:02:13
it's away from the madding crowd, it's, it's, it's focused,

01:02:17
because you're in your own compound. And, you know, all

01:02:19
that training can occur without distraction. And I think that's

01:02:24
what you need for for that kind of adventure. You know, once

01:02:29
you're going into an overhead environment, it's got to be

01:02:32
completely focused, doesn't it?

01:02:33
Jeffrey Glenn: Right? It is focused training, because you

01:02:37
need that focused execution to be seamless. So it is very, you

01:02:43
know, maximum groups three, because that's the ideal team

01:02:47
size in a cave. So no more than three instructors always

01:02:53
hovering metres away from the diver. In well travelled caves.

01:03:01
So the cave instructor has their set caves that they go to, for

01:03:07
each of the different training guys, because they know that

01:03:10
that training cave intimately. So then they can drill down on

01:03:15
the focus of the diver skills in that particular section of the

01:03:18
training. Because obviously, as an instructor, you don't want to

01:03:22
be worried about oh, which was out, which was that which was

01:03:25
this, your focus is on the on the students. And so if you do

01:03:32
have a moment, you can easily look up the environment. Okay, I

01:03:35
know exactly where I am. This is what I need to do. It's a

01:03:38
decisive action. But yeah, it's very, it's very focused. And

01:03:42
that's, that's something that you have to you have to accept

01:03:46
when you're moving to technical is that you're your instructor

01:03:49
is going to get close to you. That's why I say that is because

01:03:55
I've had several students say to me on debriefs because a lot of

01:04:01
the times I asked them to brief the diet debrief the dive, just

01:04:05
to see where they're at, and what their thought processes

01:04:08
were. And a lot of them say, you know, you got very close to me,

01:04:11
Jeff, I'm not comfortable with that. And like, you need to get

01:04:16
comfortable with being uncomfortable make on there to

01:04:19
be your safety net if something goes wrong. And once they get

01:04:23
that through their head, they're okay with it. And then you you

01:04:27
transition into their cave environment where there are

01:04:30
like, procedures where we practice going through

01:04:33
restrictions, where you are very intimate with your teammate, you

01:04:38
know, and once they they bring down that war, they're like,

01:04:41
Okay, cool. Yeah, because it is, it is a feeling of comfort. I

01:04:46
mean, you like when you're a child. When you're feeling

01:04:49
uncomfortable, your parent picks you up, right and hold you when

01:04:54
you're in a cave and you think the world's gonna when you feel

01:04:57
the touch of your teammate or the instruct To it

01:05:00
automatically. Someone's here. I'm okay. So it's just a matter

01:05:06
of getting comfortable with the intimacy of the training. And

01:05:10
you'll see with Claire and Lenny's, you know, they've been

01:05:12
wonderful compound there, where they, you know, focus on the

01:05:16
technical training of caves and an open open sea diving. So

01:05:21
yeah, it's, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. It's pretty

01:05:24
cool. It's pretty cool to see the students enter the course,

01:05:29
you know, fearful, anxious, questioning themselves. And then

01:05:35
eight days later, they're a full cave diver. And they're just

01:05:38
like, Wow, unbelievable confidence. It is an

01:05:43
achievement. Because it really challenges challenges yourself.

01:05:47
challenges, challenges, all the negative thoughts that you have.

01:05:51
I can't do this where you just did it. Yeah, I can do this now.

01:05:55
You know, so I think

01:05:56
Matt Waters: it's Yeah, I think it's a particular kind of person

01:05:59
that wants to do cave in though, isn't it? I know. Those little

01:06:02
those few dives and played around with, you know, caves a

01:06:05
little bit. You know, you shouldn't play around, but not

01:06:08
to any great depth. But for me, I prefer the open space, the

01:06:14
fish, the Rex. I don't get the excitement as much with caves.

01:06:20
And that's just me being honest. I'm sure there's people out

01:06:23
there that will be screaming by now guys.

01:06:27
Jeffrey Glenn: Are Awesome. My reply to that, Matt, you haven't

01:06:30
been to the right cave yet. I have to be honest. And every

01:06:36
every time I go into a cave, I'm fearful. You know, I'm like,

01:06:39
anxious, you know, got the 100 voices in my head go. As soon as

01:06:46
you get in there, and you look around and you think, Wow, look

01:06:49
how big these caves are? Yeah, you're like, wow, look at that.

01:06:55
Look at that. Look at that. And before you know it within

01:06:57
minutes. You're not even fearful anymore. You just like cool.

01:07:01
Look at this stuff I'm looking at. Because you're diving into

01:07:04
history, Matt, you're diving into history lab I have been

01:07:07
fortunate enough to do some exploration dives in, in Mexico,

01:07:12
to unexplored passages where I'm looking at things that I know,

01:07:17
no one on this planet had seen before. Things hundreds of years

01:07:21
old and it gives you a buzz, it gives you a path go. Wow, wow.

01:07:25
And that draws you to draws you do a little bit more, you know,

01:07:28
let's go here. What's around that corner? What's in that

01:07:30
keyhole? So yeah, I mean, the challenge of technical diving is

01:07:35
there. It's it's a challenging route. But once you're there,

01:07:40
the rewards are endless, and I can't wait to get back to it.

01:07:44
I'm excited to go COVID glory now I'm not just gonna look at

01:07:47
my cape diving pictures now.

01:07:52
Matt Waters: I'm just gonna think about some warmer water.

01:07:57
Jeffrey Glenn: I did a couple of months of training in a Gambia

01:08:01
just recently. I was teaching Ryan, his raid rebreather 60

01:08:11
Instructor Course. And I was teaching Matt and a couple of

01:08:14
guys from Altona dollar shop in Altona. The entry level

01:08:20
rebreather course and I was diving in Cosby's 780 degrees

01:08:24
met so when you're used to 30 degree water in Thailand to move

01:08:31
into 17 degrees and the boys down there will like it a warm

01:08:35
day Jeff. I did buy some extra undergarments. I didn't. Well,

01:08:44
Matt Waters: I'm not great with it. When we get one we're

01:08:48
usually between 16 and if we're lucky 20 to 23 in the height of

01:08:52
summer, but you know I do go and dive and I enjoy dive in here.

01:08:58
However 1617 degrees it's it's certainly the one that makes me

01:09:04
decide to have an extra cup of coffee instead.

01:09:07
Jeffrey Glenn: You are music drysuit

01:09:09
Matt Waters: I did do and then I started hitting the gym so the

01:09:11
dry super bore I outgrew and then I'm a bit reluctant to

01:09:17
spend another couple of three grand on it. Assuming it's been

01:09:19
around growing, isn't it?

01:09:21
Jeffrey Glenn: It's expensive until that um, again like you

01:09:24
want to dive you know some of those places in Europe. You know

01:09:26
you want to long submersion in Mexico, Florida. In those caves,

01:09:31
yeah, you need to keep warm otherwise. I'd say that's it all

01:09:35
over for you. And I'll shoot in a mindmap Steve Lambert I taught

01:09:42
him his entry level. His entry level technical diving on Kotel

01:09:47
and I was banned. The he moved on to rebreathers we went back

01:09:51
to the States went back to Florida. They moved on to the

01:09:55
rebreathers the Optima just founded Optima regretted Uh, and

01:10:01
he's been throwing himself into the cape community there in

01:10:04
Florida. And last weekend, he just did an eight and a half

01:10:08
hour cave dive, some exploration dropped another like 500 metres

01:10:12
a line and a cape passage that he and his mates had found. And,

01:10:16
you know, for me as its initial instructor, I get a real buzz

01:10:20
out of seeing my previous students just kicking ass and

01:10:25
doing cool stuff in technical diving. You know, I've watched

01:10:30
the progress of quite a few more students, and sometimes I think

01:10:34
they've surpassed what I

01:10:37
Matt Waters: got to get back. I gotta get back out there and

01:10:39
Jeffrey Glenn: do some more. It's fascinating. It's really

01:10:43
cool. Because that's, that's what you're seeing with

01:10:45
technical you know, it's just, there's such a long journey with

01:10:49
it. And going back to recreation, you can only go so

01:10:51
far to recreation. Yeah. And follow people with a real true

01:10:55
passion or diving do eventually migrate into tech. And once they

01:11:01
realise the learning curves, there is exponential. It's it's

01:11:05
it's a whole lifetime of adventure right there in front

01:11:08
of you.

01:11:09
Matt Waters: Yeah. Well, this has been a bit of an adventure

01:11:12
in itself might. I think we'll I think we'll wrap it up for now.

01:11:16
Okay. It's, it's been an absolute pleasure having on the

01:11:20
show, buddy and seeing you it's been far too long. So I'm scared

01:11:25
to say it, but we'll probably have a beer again at some point.

01:11:31
Jeffrey Glenn: Next year, they're having us tech up and

01:11:33
they want you in Sydney. They're doing it in Melbourne next year.

01:11:37
Oh, yeah. It was supposed to be this year, but obviously COVID

01:11:41
put a halt to those plans. But I think they're doing in

01:11:44
September, next year in Melbourne. So I'll be going look

01:11:48
into that. Make sure you get down there because I'll

01:11:50
definitely be there for sure. But yeah, we may see each other

01:11:53
in Cape Town right.

01:11:58
Matt Waters: Fingers crossed. But

01:12:03
Jeffrey Glenn: Rugby World Cups next to me. Is it is it next

01:12:06
year or the year after? As 2023. So no, no as far as we can go.

01:12:13
What's your rugby together?

01:12:14
Matt Waters: Yeah, a little bit of carnage.

01:12:18
Jeffrey Glenn: Thanks for having me, Matt. I really appreciate

01:12:20
it. Enjoy the time with you, Mike. Good to see you again.

01:12:23
Matt Waters: You too, buddy. It's been great. Thanks for

01:12:25
coming on the show.

01:12:25
Unknown: You're welcome. Thank you. Cheers, guys. Thanks

01:12:27
everybody, me. podcast for the inquisitive

01:12:32
diver.