00:00:06
Matt Waters: Hey there dive buddies and welcome to the show.

00:00:08
Since becoming closer to and more aware of our blue world. I've

00:00:12
noticed how many marvelous foundations charities and

00:00:14
organizations there are doing their bit. Equally so I've also

00:00:18
noticed the commercial entities that are seemingly polar opposite

00:00:20
in the thought processes, or are they rather than fighting to

00:00:24
enforce a particular view? Should we not be putting more effort

00:00:27
into working together to not only provide awareness, but also

00:00:30
protect the oceans inhabitants? My next guest has been the

00:00:34
managing director of sea shepherd Australia for almost 14 years.

00:00:37
And is one of the directors of sea shepherd global undoubtedly

00:00:42
Jeff Hanson has been involved in multiple discussions from both

00:00:44
sides of the fence. And on several occasions has found that

00:00:47
working with the opposition, it brings up some unexpected and

00:00:50
successful surprises. Jeff, welcome to the show, chief, how

00:00:53
are you doing?

00:00:53
Jeff Hansen: Oh, great. It's really good to be here on Scuba

00:00:55
Goat and yeah, it's so great to connect with you, Matt.

00:01:00
Matt Waters: You are more than welcome on the show, buddy. Um,

00:01:02
and I've got, uh, right out the gate. I've just got to let

00:01:04
everybody know that Jeff has gone above and beyond because the kids

00:01:08
are out of school at the moment and he sat in his car to do the

00:01:10
recording. Good on you, mate.

00:01:14
Jeff Hansen: This is the things you have to do when, uh, you

00:01:17
know, young hearts and minds, they just want to run. Right. And

00:01:20
so they should right.

00:01:23
Matt Waters: Um, right. So, um, do you want to give us a bit of a

00:01:27
background on yourself, you are over in Perth at the moment?

00:01:32
Jeff Hansen: Yeah, this is where I guess I call home now, but I

00:01:36
grew up in Melbourne, um, opposite, uh, Darwin Creek. And,

00:01:41
um, I spent every day I could down there lifting rocks and

00:01:44
catching lizards and snakes and just having a playground there

00:01:47
with my mates and my first love was dinosaurs, but as I couldn't

00:01:51
have them as pets. So I think we moved to, to reptiles and, um,

00:01:56
you know, I guess I always had a dream of going out to be a

00:01:58
wildlife vet specializing in reptiles or working in Africa,

00:02:01
saving animals from poachers and , um, yeah, for all the wrong

00:02:05
reasons. I did a double degree in electronic engineering and

00:02:08
computer science, um, at LA Trobe uni in Bundoora. And, um, uh, in

00:02:12
reality it was slightly eating away at me, you know, work in

00:02:15
Germany. I worked in the states, which was great to see the world,

00:02:18
but whenever I watched the nature documentary or I felt ill in the

00:02:22
stomach and I thought I couldn't change my life. Um, and then I,

00:02:27
um, yeah, I looked at Steve Erwin's life when he died and I

00:02:30
thought, no, he died at 44, which is quite young, but he led a full

00:02:36
life of passion. And so what's the point in living to be a

00:02:39
hundred and do something you hate. That's not a life. Um, and

00:02:44
so I started taking steps in other directions. I went and

00:02:47
volunteered at Australia zoo and it was like, well, that's kind

00:02:50
of, not really what I want to do. And then I met, um, it was with

00:02:54
my wife marina and we were on the, on the Bunda cliffs, in

00:02:59
Australia, which stretches for a hundred kilometers long and 80 to

00:03:02
a hundred meters vertical. And looking over the coast there, we

00:03:05
saw a mother and a calf Southern Ryte whale, and marina said, I'm

00:03:09
going to go back and start to h elp th at s e a s h epherd m o b.

00:03:12
An d, you know, I just learned about sea shepherd and was blown

00:03:14
away by the, the words of Paul Watson and the actions of the

00:03:19
volunteer crews and what they were doing actively intervening

00:03:21
to stop illegal wh aling i n t he Southern ocean. And I just had to

00:03:25
be a part of it. So yeah, I came back from Australia zoo. I met

00:03:29
Paul Watson in Fremantle and, um, I said to Paul, I've just come

00:03:34
back from Australia zoo. And he said, well, I'm trying to name

00:03:36
one of our ships the Steve Erwin, could you help with that. And I

00:03:39
said, well, I've just come back from there. I'll, I'll see what I

00:03:42
can do with the connections I made. And two weeks later, while

00:03:45
still working[inaudible] I saw an email which said Steve Erwin, and

00:03:49
it is, um, Jeff, we have permission to name the ship the

00:03:52
Steve Erwin and we'll get right on it, Paul. And I was really

00:03:55
blown away by, I thought, geez, I've only just started taking a

00:03:57
step in this direction and look what already what had happened.

00:04:00
And then I flew to Melbourne and got the ship ready for campaign,

00:04:05
took 10 days off school and watch the Terrio and Chris, and then,

00:04:09
uh, name the, the ship, the Steve Erwin and it sail away to

00:04:13
Antarctica to defend the whales from the Japanese harpoons. And,

00:04:18
um, yeah, it broke my heart not being on it. Um, but on the third

00:04:21
leg of that campaign, I got to go down to Antarctica and see one of

00:04:26
the most beautiful places on the planet, uh, an ancient world of

00:04:29
ice and, you know, Minkey's Southern right Whales, humpbacks,

00:04:33
you know, um, you know, blue walls chunks of ice with the

00:04:37
Delhi penguins on them and, and all cause storming through like

00:04:40
the wolves of the sea, you know, just an incredible and nature.

00:04:45
And I get, get gave me a taste of what our oceans were like before

00:04:48
us. And, and, um, I strongly believed, you know, we were

00:04:53
heading in a position where I, I believe, um, was away from where

00:04:57
the Japanese whaling fleet was. And I presented my hypothesis to

00:05:02
Paul Watson and we changed course and yeah, I kind of was caught up

00:05:07
in the moment and stood back and thought, geez, what, what if I

00:05:10
was wrong? But, but luckily we had, um, yeah, we had harpoon

00:05:14
ships on the radar, um, trying to take us away from our position,

00:05:17
sitting in the fog. And then Paul asked me for were I believe the

00:05:21
factory whaling ship to be the Nishin Maru, which is the one

00:05:24
that if we find the Nishin Maru, we can sit on it and block it

00:05:28
from being able to transfer. Um, whiales in essence, if I can't

00:05:33
count low dead whales and I can't kill live ones, and that's one of

00:05:35
our most effective tactics down there and here we we encountered

00:05:40
armed, Japanese coast guard, throwing percussion grenades at

00:05:43
us in Australia's Antarctic territory. And we, uh, saved over

00:05:47
500 whales. And then I presented a number of ideas on how we could

00:05:51
grow sea shepherd in Australia. And Paul asked me to, to run it

00:05:55
back in, um, 2008. So yeah, and from then, it's just been one

00:06:01
thing after another, a real baptism of fire, um,

00:06:05
Matt Waters: Was that, that, that, you know, where you've gone

00:06:07
from sitting and looking out over the bight to being on the ship

00:06:11
with Paul and saying, we need to go that way instead of this way,

00:06:14
is that all in one year, is that all in 2008?

00:06:18
Jeff Hansen: Yeah, 2006, late 2006 was, was standing at the

00:06:23
Bunda cliffs and then 2007 was sort of volunteering at Australia

00:06:27
zoo. And, and then, um, meeting Paul at the end of 2007, and then

00:06:32
, um, February, 2008, the third leg of operation Migaloo. I was

00:06:38
on the ship. And, um, with Paul, you know, as, uh, as a

00:06:42
quartermaster in the bridge. So yeah, it, it happened quite

00:06:47
quickly and I was definitely not a public speaker, but I started

00:06:51
volunteering with a local Fremantle chapter and, you know,

00:06:54
it just, um, they just flowed like all, all the, you know, all

00:06:59
the stuff I was kind of keeping inside me about the natural

00:07:02
world, you know, cause at the time when I met marina, I was, I

00:07:06
met her at yoga. I was training for the west Australian Ironman.

00:07:09
I was kind of doing lots of kilometers on the bike and that

00:07:12
running and thinking, looking at nature and thinking, I'm going to

00:07:15
spend more time doing something with nature. I don't know how or

00:07:18
when, but it's, it's definitely, it's, it's pulling me in, in that

00:07:22
direction.

00:07:25
Matt Waters: It's obviously a very, um, a subject that's very

00:07:29
close to your heart and stood you in good stead for well, the next

00:07:34
14 years,

00:07:36
Jeff Hansen: Yeah, I think we all have it as kids, you know, kids

00:07:40
that grow up in the world that we all love the natural world, we're

00:07:43
still connected to it, but it's the way society is built. The

00:07:48
kind of tries to take us away from it and disconnect us from

00:07:51
the natural world. Um, and I think that some of us long for it

00:07:57
and, and feel very strongly about it, uh, our whole lives. And, um,

00:08:02
I've always felt a deep connection to nature and, and

00:08:05
even some things where, you know, I, I hear about the connection

00:08:10
that Aboriginal people have and I've seen it firsthand that they

00:08:12
have to the land and the sea. And some of the things that I've

00:08:16
seen, you wouldn't believe where I've walked down. Um, we're in

00:08:23
wild beach and Northern beaches of Sydney. And I was with, uh,

00:08:26
the morning elder and, and while song man Barna Lori, and we left

00:08:30
the house together. We walked down to the beach, we stood at

00:08:32
the ocean and he's told me there was a big part of dolphins out

00:08:36
there. And I'd seen exactly what he had seen and looked out

00:08:42
together and didn't say anything. And a couple of minutes later, a

00:08:47
big pot of dolphins come through. And I was just, and I think

00:08:50
that's the level of connection that we may never understand that

00:08:55
you first Australians have with the land and the sea and to, and

00:08:59
to each other. And one day I was out in the Bush, um, actually in

00:09:04
Victoria, up near patent hill, um, going for a Bush walk through

00:09:08
there with, and I, I stood there and I felt that there was

00:09:12
kangaroos in the area and we're walking along an incline and I

00:09:16
just sensed that they were in the end of the sanity, right close to

00:09:20
us. And then I looked up this hill and there was about four or

00:09:25
five of them just standing next to the tree, just still just

00:09:28
looking, looking at us. So I think we have, we very much are

00:09:33
connected. And, um, you know, we, I think we've, we've somewhat

00:09:38
lost that. And, and, you know, often, sometimes you'll be in the

00:09:41
garden and you were thinking about someone you haven't thought

00:09:45
of for years. And then all of a sudden the phone rings and it's

00:09:48
fam like, we always think it's still there. We've just lost that

00:09:51
ability to tap into it. And I know that when, um, James Cameron

00:09:56
was, you know, he made that film avatar and you can see that the

00:09:59
connection that the indigenous group have in the film to the

00:10:03
plants and the animals and how it's all connected through a

00:10:06
neuro network. And, you know, I've read the book, the hidden

00:10:09
life of trees works, explains that trees are connected with

00:10:12
Fungal neural network where they can communicate with each other.

00:10:15
They can ensure that the younger generation of trees don't grow

00:10:19
too fast. So they get a good foundation. Or if there's trees

00:10:22
in the forest are doing, doing, not doing well, they can send

00:10:26
nutrients to some of those other trees in the forest to help them.

00:10:30
Um, and yet I know that when Sam Worthington was, you know,

00:10:34
getting ready for that role in avatar that, um, he, he spoke to

00:10:38
some local, um, Nunga, um, elders to understand their connection to

00:10:42
the land and the sea. So it's, it's real and it's, it's there

00:10:46
and it's, um, even scientifically proven, um, it's, it's truly,

00:10:51
truly amazing. And then there's the whole, you know, explaining

00:10:55
the, the importance of the natural world to us from it's our

00:10:58
life support that makes it possible for us to live here.

00:11:01
Matt Waters: Well That's it, we are part of it aren't we.

00:11:04
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. And I love that. Um, you know, I was with

00:11:07
Paul Watson many years ago, down in Margaret river in Western

00:11:11
Australia. And, um, he sat down with a bunch of school kids and

00:11:17
he said, has anyone ever been on a spaceship? And all the kids are

00:11:21
looking around at each other. And he said, yes, what you're online

00:11:25
right now? This is spaceship earth hurdling through space,

00:11:29
unlike any spaceship, there's the passengers and the crew, the crew

00:11:33
run this ship, the insects, the worms, the turtles, the sharks,

00:11:36
the trees, the plankton, they regulate our climate. They take

00:11:40
care of our waste. They provide us with the food that we eat and

00:11:43
the air that we breathe. Cool. Wait, wait, just the passengers,

00:11:47
where's this here. And a good old time problem is we're killing off

00:11:49
a crew. So we've got to protect the crew and if understood that

00:11:54
business and government and, and right through the board, we,

00:11:58
hopefully we shouldn't need these conservation movements or

00:12:01
conservation fights. And we have a government that actually holds

00:12:05
the ecology of our planet, you know, right up there. And instead

00:12:09
of always focusing on the economy and infinite growth on a finite

00:12:13
resource,

00:12:15
Matt Waters: Yeah, it's a, it's a difficult one. Isn't it?

00:12:17
Especially when you've got people that just don't have the

00:12:19
knowledge and experience of, of what it's all about. Uh, and, and

00:12:24
in fact are completely oblivious to the importance of everything,

00:12:28
Jeff Hansen: But mind you, they, if they're given the knowledge,

00:12:31
they can, like, I've seen people that have perceptions on sea

00:12:35
shepherd and be that government be that industry. And, and when

00:12:39
you just talk to them, not with ignorance, but to explain the

00:12:43
importance of the natural world and talk about it in different

00:12:46
ways. Like Sir David Attenborough does with BBC and et cetera, like

00:12:50
the more people that have that knowledge, the more that it

00:12:53
becomes common, the more that becomes the new norm, um, people

00:12:58
will start to think about things differently and we have to change

00:13:01
the way we live on a planet. And as we can see, you know, that the

00:13:05
money is, is going to more investment in renewables, um, the

00:13:10
price of coal and oil and gas is definitely, it's not being

00:13:14
commercially viable anymore. Um, and it just, the whole saying is

00:13:19
change is opportunity in disguise. So you have to be

00:13:22
optimistic. Um, I think we just need to continue the fight as

00:13:26
long as we can to, to have those environmental winds, to bite us

00:13:30
that time that we all that we wake up.

00:13:34
Matt Waters: Mm. Um, talking about environmental wins, um, I'm

00:13:38
dying to get on the topic, um, Operation Jeedara, um, I'm just

00:13:44
completely fascinated. And in awe of this one, uh, can you give us

00:13:49
a bit of a background for those listeners that might not be aware

00:13:51
of?

00:13:52
Jeff Hansen: Yeah, well, 2015, I was in Adelaide. I met a fellow

00:13:55
Peter Owne, who's the director of the wilderness society in south

00:13:59
Australia. And he said that he put a call out to many groups to

00:14:03
try and get them to help with, um , a big fight he was facing,

00:14:06
which was BP wanting to drill for all in the great Australian bot

00:14:10
in waters, deeper rougher, and more remote than the Gulf of

00:14:14
Mexico, where they had their massive blow out there. Um, and

00:14:18
also found out that less than six months after that big blowout in

00:14:21
the Gulf of Mexico, um, that the Australian government granted

00:14:27
leases the BP to drill for oil in the great Australian Bight, which

00:14:30
is just, you know, at the time, I really didn't know much about the

00:14:35
bite. So with Mernie elder Bunna Lawrie and, um, Peter Owen and

00:14:41
myself, we sat down and form the , um, the great Australian Bight

00:14:46
Alliance and formed the strategy on how we could potentially stop

00:14:49
BP from drilling oil there. And, um, we really looked at, I guess,

00:14:56
one of the things that had worked in the Kimberly, which was where

00:14:59
we were successful in, in many other groups and indigenous as

00:15:03
well, and stopping, um, a massive gas hub from going through the

00:15:06
middle of the world's biggest humpback Whale nursery was to

00:15:10
take the Steve Erwin up there and showcase what we would all lose

00:15:13
if the project went ahead. And so in essence, we put together a

00:15:19
voyage of, of expedition because when we're Googling these places

00:15:23
that we're going to go to, Pearson Island, Noyts reef and

00:15:27
St.Francis Isle Fennel island, and there was very little

00:15:31
information about these places. Um, and so, yeah, we basically

00:15:38
launched the campaign operation Jeedara, and the reason we call

00:15:41
it Jeedara was because Mirning elder Bunna Lawrie. He told us

00:15:44
the story of the great white whale Jeedara, um, which went

00:15:49
into the great Australian Bight along the waters there and

00:15:52
breathe life into the land and the sea, and that all the Marine

00:15:55
life that there in the byte, um, through that area, go there to

00:15:58
honor the journey of the great white whale Jeedara. And what's

00:16:02
there in the bodies. It's nature on steroids. I mean, it's one of

00:16:06
the last big intact Marine wilderness areas left on the

00:16:09
planet. Um, you're talking deep sea canyons up welling of

00:16:13
nutrients, giant squid, orcas, sperm, whales, blue whales

00:16:18
humpbacks. One of the world's most significant Southern Ryte

00:16:20
whale nurseries and seals, dolphins, penguins sharks, Mako

00:16:25
sharks, great white sharks. Um, the place is truly remarkable.

00:16:29
And the offshore islands, there are places like pearson island.

00:16:32
They, uh, the welcoming party, there is Australian endangered

00:16:36
sea lions rushing out to meet you as long nose, fur seals, there's,

00:16:41
you know, black footed rock Wallabees, peninsula dragons,

00:16:44
Cape barren, geese. And then, you know, I've been diving there with

00:16:48
, um, you know, the south Australian parks team and the

00:16:51
water. Quality's incredible, the visibility, and then the Marine

00:16:56
life there, it's just so healthy and rich, you know, Harlequin

00:17:00
fish and Southern blue devils. And yeah, it's just, and you

00:17:04
know, when we arrived at Pearson, which was 70 kilometers off the

00:17:07
coast of the air peninsula, you, you know, you had to wait for the

00:17:11
right conditions to land at that beach there. And even then it was

00:17:14
quite tricky. And there's such so many rocks where there's, you

00:17:18
know, baby, um, seals underneath them be that Australian sea lions

00:17:23
or the long nose fur seals. And it shows that if there was a

00:17:28
spill in the byte and the spill modeling showed that it could

00:17:30
impact much of Southern Australia from Western Australia around new

00:17:34
south Wales, that places like Pearson, which are on par with

00:17:37
the Galapagos would be lost. That'd

00:17:39
Matt Waters: Be w we gotta, we got to put it into perspective

00:17:42
there as well, because as a, as a non Aussie, you know, I've only

00:17:45
been here three years, so I've done, uh, a lot of learning in

00:17:48
the last three years. But prior to that, I knew literally nothing

00:17:51
about Australia. So there's a lot of people that listen to this

00:17:53
show that are outside Australia, and to give them an idea of the

00:17:58
size of the location we're looking at, um, when BP did their

00:18:02
, um, estimates on what would occur should a spell occur. ie

00:18:09
how far the oil damage would stretch. It's over 12

00:18:15
kilometers. Huge 12 is crazy.

00:18:20
Jeff Hansen: You're dealing with a sea straight that is the

00:18:22
biggest in the world. You know, the forties, the fifties, the

00:18:25
sixties, you know, there's nothing between Australia and

00:18:27
Antarctica. Yeah. Um, and you, you're dealing with, you know,

00:18:31
deep seas. Um, and there is in the Gulf of Mexico, you've got

00:18:37
quite an industrial area where there's plenty of other vessels

00:18:40
and support rigs to handle the spill, but in the great

00:18:43
Australian Byte there's nothing, there's no oil and gas there. So

00:18:47
if there was a blow out, there's nothing there to handle the

00:18:50
impact. And you're not going to be able to do anything about a

00:18:52
spill there because of the sea state, the conditions, the

00:18:55
canyons, et cetera. So all you're going to be able to do is spray

00:18:59
dispersants everywhere. And when you know that the dispersants

00:19:01
that some of them were used in the Gulf of Mexico made the spill

00:19:05
52 times more toxic. Um, so this stuff, and even BP, when they,

00:19:10
you know, through an FOI request that was done, found that, um, BP

00:19:15
actually said that, you know, one of the benefits, if there was a

00:19:18
spill would be to create jobs in the cleanup effort. I mean, and,

00:19:22
and, and, and the, the NOPSEMA, actually wrote back and said,

00:19:25
look, I, I think you better take , take that bit out, but, but in

00:19:29
the end, BP pulled out. And then the next, next cab off the rank

00:19:33
was Chevron. They pulled out. And then we had, um, Equinor, which

00:19:39
was falling out as Statoil a Norwegian company. And they were

00:19:42
the last big oil and gas company to pull out. So there's still a

00:19:45
number of leases there. We're still working on it. Or we want

00:19:48
to say greater protection for the bight. And we want to say an

00:19:51
anti-seismic in our oceans. Um, you know, seismic is so

00:19:54
destructive to our marine life, um, from plankton right through

00:19:58
to whales.

00:19:59
Matt Waters: Do you wanna explain that to me, mate?

00:20:02
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. So seismic is something that is used by a lot

00:20:05
of the oil and gas companies to, you know, firstly, you know,

00:20:08
blast, you know, sound waves through, down to the ocean floor

00:20:13
and then get a readout so they can see what you know, where

00:20:16
there are oil and gas deposits in the ocean. But you know, a lot of

00:20:20
the Sonic blasts and the impact of that does is it has shown to

00:20:25
actually cause impact to cetations right through to, to

00:20:28
plankton. Um, you know, we're talking about animals that are,

00:20:32
you know, it could be down, it could be, um, you know, sperm

00:20:35
whales and all sorts of other whiles where it causes

00:20:38
hemorrhaging in a brain and effectively, they just have to

00:20:41
get out the ocean. And often they strand or beach themselves and

00:20:45
autopsies have shown, you know, blood coming out frequently

00:20:47
through there is a and causing hemorrhaging of the brain. Um,

00:20:51
the other type of noise in our ocean is obviously, um, sonar

00:20:55
from our, our submarines and, and, you know, um, Navy

00:21:01
operations as well. That has a big impact on citations as well.

00:21:05
There's been footage of documentation of, you know, a

00:21:08
Navy vessel going through and a pod of orcas just storming

00:21:12
towards the coast to get to get out of the water because of the

00:21:15
noise is just impacting them so bad, like, wow. Um, and then

00:21:18
there's shipping noise as well, which, you know, our ships all

00:21:20
over the world and it's really, well-documented in the film, um,

00:21:25
uh, Sonic sea. And it just showcases, you know, the impacts

00:21:29
that humans have had on our oceans, um, through sound

00:21:32
because, you know, our world is very much driven by sight, you

00:21:36
know, we're up here and we can see as far as, as light can

00:21:40
travel, you know, out into the galaxies and like air is an

00:21:45
incredible medium, um, for lot, um, our oceans and water is an

00:21:50
incredible medium for sound. Where blue whales used to be able

00:21:53
to communicate with each other from one side of the planet to

00:21:56
the other. And so when you think about that, that that is their

00:22:00
way to navigate and communicate that with deafening out the

00:22:05
oceans. And that's so sad that we've done that. Um, and like,

00:22:09
because of, because of ignorance and what we're seeing now is that

00:22:13
even fishing companies like, um, you know, the tuner or, or other

00:22:18
, um, Rock lobster, et cetera, that they're actually asking, um,

00:22:23
you know, they're joining forces to see inquiry's up, which just

00:22:27
got recently, there's an inquiry got up on seismic and oceans from

00:22:31
Senator Peter wish Wilson of the greens and the reason he got that

00:22:34
inquiry because of backing from the commercial fishing sector,

00:22:37
because they're saying the impacts of seismic, um, on their

00:22:41
fisheries as well, because it's impacting lobsters and plankton.

00:22:45
And so even in some cases they're asking to be compensated when,

00:22:48
uh, oil and gas companies that come through and done their

00:22:51
seismic work. So yeah, it's, it's another can of worms that, um, we

00:22:56
, we need to address, I mean, best way to look after the oceans

00:22:59
is just leave it alone.

00:23:00
Matt Waters: Just talking about the bight there. Um, I did watch

00:23:04
the video that goes with operation Jeedara. Um, in fact,

00:23:08
I've watched it probably six times now in the last week. Oh,

00:23:13
wow. I think it's fantastic. Um, and I urge anyone to watch it.

00:23:18
The thing that I actually really loved about it was when the old

00:23:22
boys sat up on top of the, um, the bight looking out to see. And

00:23:27
we talk about, as you mentioned earlier, Jeedara being, uh, a

00:23:31
white whale and lo and behold, there's a white calf that rocks

00:23:35
up in front of him and stays for an hour or two, doesn't it?

00:23:40
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. So as I mentioned, we named the campaign

00:23:43
operation Jeedara and in honor of Bunna Lawri and the mirning and

00:23:49
they're dreaming. And when we arrive at heada bight, um, which

00:23:55
is, you know, you can stand there at the platform and, and count at

00:24:00
the time 50, 60 mother and calf pairs of Southern right Whales

00:24:04
for their carves, uh, incredibly important nursing grounds there.

00:24:09
And often you'll even see if, you know, cause you get some big

00:24:13
sharks, are there huge growth, great witehs. And they'll come in

00:24:18
trying to look for an opportunity to, you know, grab one of the

00:24:21
calves. And so they've noticed that the, the mothers will

00:24:25
actually form a form a group and put the carves in the middle and

00:24:28
protect the carves carves that way. But Bunna Lawrie a mirning

00:24:33
elder, was standing at the, at the edge of the cliffs. And he

00:24:37
was, you know, using his clap sticks and, and singing and doing

00:24:40
ceremony and welcoming the Whales Whales. And because of that, that

00:24:44
relationship goes back to, you know, thousands of years to, to

00:24:48
millennia. Um, and he was standing there and he had, um,

00:24:54
you know, a mother come over Southern right whale and sit

00:24:56
right in front of him and a white calf, um, right in front of him.

00:25:00
And so I remember standing there, we designed the logo for the

00:25:04
campaign and I very much wanted it to be very, um, having an

00:25:09
emotional feeling and connection with it. And so that the logo had

00:25:13
the, you know, the Bunda cliffs, which stretched for a hundred

00:25:16
kilometers long, 80 to a hundred meters, vertical turquoise ocean

00:25:21
and Jeedara the white whale. And I'm standing there at that, had a

00:25:25
bite with a burning elder and, you know, we've got our t-shirts

00:25:30
on with the logo on it and here's a white calf right in front of

00:25:33
us. You know, it's just,

00:25:35
Matt Waters: Its uncanny, you're stood inside your own logo?

00:25:38
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. And I just think it's, there's, there's too

00:25:41
much of that that happens, you know, for it to be coincidence.

00:25:45
Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. I've got to agree. I mean, and I'm sure

00:25:49
there's many divers out there as well. I'd probably think the same

00:25:52
as, you know, you go looking for particular species when you want

00:25:57
to film them or take camera shots or anything like that, or even

00:25:59
just to experience it and those times, and I've had a few now

00:26:03
where you've been in the water and there's been quite a lot of

00:26:05
other divers. And let's say for example, a whale shark or a manta

00:26:09
Ray is off in the distance, or even more recently a Mola Mola.

00:26:13
And you see the cavalry charge of all the divers chasing after it

00:26:17
to, you know, live the experience. And on several

00:26:21
occasions, just have that little moment. And we had thinking, oh,

00:26:25
she's going to turn left in a minute. I ended up just swimming

00:26:28
at 90 degrees, um, away from everyone and the dive guides or

00:26:34
your dive buddies are like, you know what, the only thing you do

00:26:36
and it's going that way and that's okay, come this way, come

00:26:39
this way. And sure enough, you know, it comes back round and you

00:26:42
have that moment and you can still see the cavalry charge,

00:26:46
following the whale shark as she comes over and gives you a little

00:26:49
wink on the way past. And it's a sensational, sensational feeling.

00:26:54
And it is, it's almost like this link that you're talking about.

00:26:58
That's what I feel. I feel like there's a link there to the

00:27:02
special moments.

00:27:04
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. I think animals can sense it. You know,

00:27:07
when, when we're, when we're quiet, it's a bit like that. They

00:27:09
talk about great whites to can tell when my calm and my heart,

00:27:12
when our heart rates are racing, you know, and, and I think that's

00:27:17
the same with, with nature. They can sense how people are reacting

00:27:21
and responding. Um, I've been fine with diving. I, I get

00:27:24
frustrated being in a dive group where you've, you know, you're

00:27:27
constantly on the move. Yeah. Now when you, I like to just

00:27:31
sometimes sit and watch and see what happens, you know, um, a bit

00:27:36
like, you know, being traveling in Europe and you find a nice

00:27:39
Plaza or plucker and just sit there and watch the world go by

00:27:42
and watch the day-to-day happenings of life. And that's

00:27:45
the thing, you know, you're, you're a visitor in, in the

00:27:49
world, in the oceans that at some reef or some ecosystem or some

00:27:52
particular area, which is a number of animals home and

00:27:56
they're going about their daily lives. And to spend some time,

00:27:59
you know, I'd rather spend, you know, half an hour sitting in one

00:28:02
spot and just watching and see what evolves.

00:28:05
Matt Waters: I quite a lot of people in Papua New Guinea do

00:28:07
that, especially the older, older , uh, divers that didn't want to

00:28:11
move around to sit him on top of the reef, four or five meters,

00:28:15
leave them there for an hour and a half. They loved it. Yeah.

00:28:17
Yeah. Watch the world go by.

00:28:20
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. And I mean, it's

00:28:23
interesting, like you hear those stories where, you know, someone

00:28:28
that's looked after elephants for, you know, many, much of

00:28:32
their life and being a caretaker for elephant, um, you know,

00:28:36
orphans, et cetera. And then that particular person has passed

00:28:41
away. And the day that they pass away, a whole group of elephants

00:28:47
have come back into camp and pay their respects and no one's, you

00:28:52
know, sent them an SMS or anything. And there's so many

00:28:55
stories like that, that they have this connection as well, you

00:28:58
know.

00:29:00
Producer - Rod: G'day Scuba Goat listeners, rod here, producer of

00:29:02
the show. I hope that you're enjoying this episode and that

00:29:04
you'll subscribed and following the pod on your favorite app,

00:29:08
please keep an eye out for the all new Scuba Goat website coming

00:29:11
soon. Now, back to Matt and the show.

00:29:16
Matt Waters: Um, let's, let's have a look at some of the

00:29:17
campaigns shall we.

00:29:18
Jeff Hansen: Lets go.

00:29:21
Matt Waters: All right. I'm just going to list them off if you

00:29:23
want to give a bit of a background to them and a bit of

00:29:26
an overview how's that?

00:29:28
Jeff Hansen: sounds good.

00:29:29
Matt Waters: Ready? Um, Operation Dolphin Bycatch.

00:29:35
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. So that's led up by our French director Lamya

00:29:38
and she's one of our six global directors, um, to document what's

00:29:41
happening with the it's a legal fishing fleet of France, but a

00:29:47
bycatch of upwards of 10 dolphins a year. So showcasing

00:29:52
well it's going on there, which is, and even sometimes bringing

00:29:54
dolphin carcasses into the heart of Paris to say, well, this is

00:29:58
still going on. And this is the impact that, um, you know, our

00:30:02
health, you know, of eating seafood is having, um, we go on

00:30:06
about Tashi and his 10 dolphins getting killed every

00:30:08
year by illegal fishery off of our coast. So, yeah. And, um,

00:30:13
even to the point we had, um, New York times on one of our ships

00:30:18
and we had a fishermen saying, oh, we never catch them. Cause

00:30:21
we've got pingers in our nets. And this particular fishermen

00:30:24
pulled in, uh, a net, um, with New York times on board and there

00:30:28
was a dolphin court in the net. So, so yeah, it's, um, it's been

00:30:32
a very successful campaign and even featured in Seaspiracy.

00:30:35
Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, is this, it's still a occuring

00:30:40
every year, isn't it it's not been resolved yet.

00:30:44
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. It's still ongoing and it's still gathering

00:30:46
more and more support from within France to put pressure on the

00:30:49
government to system action. So yeah, it's still ongoing. What

00:30:54
Matt Waters: Is, what is it with, I know we're going to talk about

00:30:55
the other operations and campaigns and we'll have it, but

00:30:57
what is it with governments? Why can't, why can't they actually

00:31:00
listen? Um, you know, from, from your experiences, you must have

00:31:04
spoken with a few of them or at least communicated with them.

00:31:07
Why, why is there such, um, why, why did they avoid actually

00:31:13
taking action and just stop in all the crap that's going on?

00:31:17
Jeff Hansen: I think because they , they don't like to choose one

00:31:20
side or the other and often governments will choose industry

00:31:23
over NGOs and conservation. So that's, you need to build up a

00:31:29
campaign to the point that it's so strong that it becomes

00:31:32
political, that it's going to be, they're going to not get certain

00:31:35
key people in those seats back in the next election. Um, so

00:31:40
ultimately very few governments do the right thing as in what's

00:31:44
what's best for humanity and best for the nation. Um, because

00:31:50
they're worried about the impacts on the next, the next election.

00:31:53
So, and you do have, for instance, you know, rec fishermen

00:31:57
and commercial fishing are very powerful voice in Canberra. And

00:32:02
we also have an issue where we have, you know, political, um,

00:32:06
you know, corporate donations as well. So, you know, that's,

00:32:09
that's another big, big impact that, you know, the greens have

00:32:12
fought to try and stop corporate donations at a government level,

00:32:16
but both the library and the liberal parties have blocked that

00:32:19
because I get those donations and that, that, that impacts, you

00:32:23
know, political decisions as well. So there's, there's a lot

00:32:26
of stuff that needs to be sorted , um, to stop us having these

00:32:30
fights.

00:32:32
Matt Waters: And it's someone with a bit of balls in parliament

00:32:34
to say enough's enough, isn't it?

00:32:37
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. And you know, every time that they have tried

00:32:40
and, you know, in the past, even, you know, to try and see some

00:32:43
real action on climate, um, then they've seen certain seats where

00:32:49
they still want to have a coal mine, and they're worried about

00:32:52
coal jobs, et cetera, et cetera, that they're going to lose those,

00:32:56
those seats in those positions. So it's sometimes political

00:32:58
suicide to do the right thing. But then there is the fact that

00:33:05
these governments and people, at times, haven't gone into these

00:33:09
areas and say, look, we're going to have these announcements. We

00:33:12
need to shift away from coal. It's not good for your health

00:33:16
with black lung disease. It's not good on the planet, but you're

00:33:19
not going to be left without a job. We're going to transition

00:33:22
you. We're going to work towards getting you out of these, these,

00:33:24
these, this, this industry like Germany have done with, you know,

00:33:28
closing down coal there. So it's just a lack of, I think, um, you

00:33:33
know, vision and, and communication and strategy. Um,

00:33:36
and I think the three year term doesn't help as well.

00:33:39
Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. So it's fear of missing out and seats and

00:33:42
, and the money that comes with it.

00:33:44
Jeff Hansen: Absolutely. Yeah.

00:33:45
Matt Waters: Well, you mentioned Coal as well. Um, I'm just

00:33:48
looking through the list, this, uh, operation reef defense,

00:33:52
that's the one to do with the GBR, isn't it?

00:33:55
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. So that's the Adani coal mine down in

00:33:58
Carmichael, coal mine, west part of the stop Adani Alliance, um,

00:34:02
and effectively where they were going to, there's still, you

00:34:06
know, it's being slowed up as much as we can, but, you know, a

00:34:09
massive coal mine up there from Adani an Indian, um, you know,

00:34:14
company that, um, know muscling in, on building this massive coal

00:34:18
mine and having huge ships going in and out and across the great

00:34:22
barrier reef. So yeah, we, part of that Alliance and the, the way

00:34:26
that that's worked is really just to, we took the Steve Erwin up

00:34:30
the the coast to, to raise awareness and show support of, of

00:34:34
that, um, that fight. Um, and then also, you know, with the

00:34:39
Alliance, they've working behind the scenes, try and stop, you

00:34:42
know, certain companies and banks from providing insurance and

00:34:46
financial support to that. To that project, so it's definitely,

00:34:50
you know, an ongoing fight, but yeah, I just don't see how coal

00:34:54
is commercially viable anymore. And it's the same with, with gas

00:34:57
as well.

00:34:59
Matt Waters: And it's, I mean, this is coal, that's just been

00:35:02
delivered back to India, isn't it? It's not, um, it's not for

00:35:05
use here.

00:35:07
Jeff Hansen: Yeah, that's correct. And I think there's

00:35:08
quite a lot of the call was going to be used for some, you know,

00:35:11
producing some, um, some plastic plant as well to make more

00:35:16
plastics. So, you know, in terms of, you know, the, you know, the

00:35:20
energy required as well. So yeah, coal is just, it's just got to go

00:35:25
and it's, it's, it's moving that way globally. Um, but you know,

00:35:29
Australia, if you measure our emissions in terms of, you know,

00:35:32
what also we export and leave the country where basically one of

00:35:36
the world's worst polluters per capita and, and our action on

00:35:39
climate is ranking about dead last.

00:35:43
Matt Waters: I can listen to it. I mean the size of the country

00:35:44
and the, the natural source of resources we've got here with the

00:35:47
sunlight and, and there's so much more that can be done.

00:35:51
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. We have a country that has so much sun, so

00:35:54
much wind and so much resources in terms of mining and what we

00:35:58
could pull out of the ground to make more, you know, batteries

00:36:02
and electricity. There's all this opportunity for growth and jobs

00:36:07
in the, in the renewable sector. Um, recently we've closed down,

00:36:11
you know, Holden another car manufacturing plants here when we

00:36:15
should have been on the front foot and transition them to

00:36:17
electric cars like Australians really want to get on board and

00:36:20
buy electric cars, but there any global cars come from outside

00:36:26
Australia. And as a result, they're hit with huge luxury car

00:36:31
taxes. So the Australians are really wanting to get on board

00:36:35
with this, but they let down by the government. So, and there's

00:36:38
just all this opportunity right here in this country to be a

00:36:42
leader in renewables and, and even car manufacturing and

00:36:45
everything, but it doesn't get the support because of decades

00:36:49
and decades of fossil fuel companies going into Canberra

00:36:53
with their political donations. And then those industries are

00:36:56
subsidized and a huge amount.

00:36:58
Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. Well, fingers crossed. We'll get

00:37:01
someone who could, when are you, I'll tell you what you take his

00:37:03
job, you sort out.

00:37:07
Jeff Hansen: I have been approached a couple of times, but

00:37:09
I just feel a lot of politicians end up doing, you know, things

00:37:13
that are, you know, so wasting so much time on areas that, you

00:37:17
know, dealing with slush funds and what someone's secretary is

00:37:21
up to and as opposed to actually doing the work. Um, you know, and

00:37:24
I think that's the thing I like about Sea Shepherd, but it's, you

00:37:26
know, we can produce real, tangible results for the oceans,

00:37:30
uh, and we're becoming more and more effective every day.

00:37:33
Matt Waters: Indeed, indeed. Now I did mention in my introduction

00:37:37
to the episode about how you've worked with industry to come to

00:37:44
resolutions before, and I think it was during your Ted talk, um,

00:37:49
or it was a video I've lost count of how many videos I've watched

00:37:52
now in the last week, but, um, there's one in particular that

00:37:55
actually struck a chord with you. Would it be fair to say that.

00:38:00
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. So we've been successful in stopping whaling in

00:38:04
the Southern ocean and, you know, the Australian government and New

00:38:07
Zealand government, uh, kudos to them that took Japan to the

00:38:10
international court of justice and found Japan as wiling to be

00:38:14
illegal. Uh, any end I did pull out and, you know, over a decade

00:38:20
of campaigning, we saved the lives of over 6 whales in the

00:38:23
Southern ocean whilst century is in fact, the sanctuary for the

00:38:26
whales for those campaigns took up a huge amount of time, money

00:38:29
and resources. That meant we couldn't do really anything else.

00:38:34
Um, and when we got back from an Antarctic mission in March, we

00:38:38
were pretty much getting ready till December to get ready to go

00:38:41
again. So with the end of whaling , um, we looked at illegal

00:38:47
fishing in the Southern ocean and namely the Pentagon Antarctic

00:38:49
tooth fish poaching, a deep sea Cod fish, which is sought after

00:38:54
for its white, um, oily flesh, um, very little binds, uh,

00:38:58
otherwise known as Chilean sea bass in the restaurants, but

00:39:01
there was six vessels wanted by Interpol that were out there, you

00:39:05
know, flouting the laws, um, you know, fleeing and, and, and, and

00:39:10
able to be, you know, detained and DePaul was after them. And

00:39:15
within a couple of days of reaching the searching grounds,

00:39:18
obviously the Bob Barker captain by Peter Hammerstad found the

00:39:21
most notorious poacher, the thunder, um, and we notified the

00:39:26
thunder. You're not supposed to be here. You're, you're illegal.

00:39:28
There's an Interpol purple notice out for you. And they said, oh,

00:39:32
we're just, we're just transitioning. We're just passing

00:39:34
through. And you've just dumped all your, all your gillnets, uh,

00:39:38
and you're on the run. And they, they just ran. So the Bob Barker

00:39:42
began to shoot and our vessel, the Sam Simon, um, they also, um,

00:39:49
they came in and found the location of the thunders gillnets

00:39:54
and pulled them in over about three weeks in icy cold

00:39:56
conditions. And those nets stretched for 72 kilometers long.

00:40:00
Matt Waters: 72 K.

00:40:01
Jeff Hansen: 72 K's long.

00:40:03
Matt Waters: Jesus.

00:40:04
Jeff Hansen: And, but that se chase lasted for 110 days at sea.

00:40:09
And during that sea chase, um, I'd recently met the guys from

00:40:14
Austrial fisheries, one of the legal two fish companies, and

00:40:17
they had perceptions on us and we have perceptions on them. They

00:40:20
felt we were a bunch of Cowboys and just there for media. And

00:40:25
they quickly learned that, hang on, you guys have reached the

00:40:27
search grounds, found the most notorious poacher, and you're

00:40:30
onto them. You notifying governments, you notifying

00:40:33
Interpol to come out and arrest the ship. And so I guess a bit of

00:40:37
a relationship developed between , David Carter, the CEO of

00:40:41
Austral fisheries and myself. And we realized that we saw the same

00:40:45
key threats to the oceans and more illegal fishing, plastics,

00:40:49
climate, and threats to vulnerable and endangered

00:40:51
species. So David said, well, we've got a vessel leaving, um,

00:40:58
Norway on route two more vicious. Perhaps we might be able to j oin

00:41:01
up w ith the chase. And so one morning the thunder captain w oke

00:41:06
up and found two conservation ships and an industry ship on, on

00:41:10
his stern. And that sent a very powerful message because, you

00:41:15
know, it's one thing for conservation ships to be, you

00:41:19
know, chasing poachers on the high seas, but an industry ship

00:41:23
that was, that was something new. Um, and so that sent a very

00:41:26
powerful message out there and, u m, which was, which was

00:41:30
fantastic, you know, to see that. And even the words that the

00:41:34
captain of, u m, the Ostral ship said to the captain of the

00:41:38
thunder were really inspiring saying, you know, you know, we've

00:41:42
got to look after the s ea. You know, you've got to stop taking

00:41:45
and taking a nd, and, and do do the right thing by our children.

00:41:49
And of tthe Thunder was definitely s haken by it. And in

00:41:53
the end, he, he scuttled h is i n his own ship o f the p rinciple,

00:41:56
our n ation, south to m ine. We had to rescue the crew and took t

00:41:59
hem into the authorities. And the office o fficers got three years

00:42:02
jail, 1 5 million euros in fines. But, u m, in about, in about two

00:42:06
years, we had the six vessels wanted b uy Interpol. We're all

00:42:10
out of action. Um, a number we found in port, we found him in

00:42:13
the Southern ocean, and then we located an in port, then we

00:42:16
notify the authorities and they went out and detained the ships

00:42:19
one vessel, the, um, the Viking we found in Indonesia's borders.

00:42:24
We notified the fisheries minister at the time, Susie, she

00:42:27
sent out the Navy, detained it and then, and then subsequently

00:42:30
blew it up. So, and, and those campaigns gave birth because of,

00:42:36
because of one of the countries that said that would arrest the

00:42:39
thunder was Gabon. If it came in its waters, those, um, yeah,

00:42:44
those that, that chase of the thunder gave birth to discussions

00:42:49
with Gabon, which then linked to the now eight government

00:42:53
partnerships we have in Africa, which is producing incredible

00:42:56
results for oceans.

00:42:58
Matt Waters: Yeah. Now that's a, that's a huge element of sea

00:43:00
shepherd right now, isn't it?

00:43:02
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. And that's, I think, you know, Testament to

00:43:04
Peter hammerstedt our head of campaigns globally and was the

00:43:08
captain of the sander and, you know, his, his vision as well, um

00:43:11
, backed up by our global directors that, you know, Gabon

00:43:16
had a very small coast guard. They couldn't patrol their entire

00:43:20
200 nautical mile eez, but they had a fishing fleet operating in

00:43:25
their waters that pay money to fish there, but they never

00:43:27
inspected some of these vessels because they couldn't get out

00:43:30
there and reach them, even though they are welcome to, um, or, or

00:43:33
go and, and stop illegal fishing vessels coming into their waters.

00:43:37
So we said, well, we've got the ship, the mostly volunteer crew

00:43:41
and the fuel, and you've got the authority, so why don't we

00:43:44
partner up? And so in essence, we provide the tools in order for

00:43:48
them to make the arrests. We also provide a training platform. We

00:43:51
bring expertise on board, um, to be able to assist with that

00:43:56
training, you know, Israeli defense, um, expertise as well.

00:44:00
And in the end, we now they've been so successful those

00:44:03
partnerships in Gabon. Yeah. Over four years ago, now that we have

00:44:07
eight government partnerships in Africa and we've facilitated the

00:44:09
arrest of, you know, over 60 illegal fishing vessels. Um, and

00:44:14
in terms of tangible outcomes in places like Liberia, the artesian

00:44:18
or fishermen, they can see the fish returning for the first time

00:44:21
in decades.

00:44:22
Matt Waters: Literally taken the words out of my mouth. I was

00:44:23
going to ask that very question.

00:44:25
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. Yeah. And they've, and they're actually,

00:44:27
you know, these people, um, live on the beaches in, tin hearts.

00:44:33
They have nothing else, but a livelihood to either, you know,

00:44:37
eight or to, you know, as their livelihoods to catch fish, to

00:44:42
sell, to get their kids to school. This is all these people

00:44:45
have. And they've been yelling at the governments for years for

00:44:49
help because they've had these massive trawlers come through and

00:44:52
industrial fleets running over their wooden canoes, sometimes

00:44:56
killing them, even recent stories of Chinese fleets coming through

00:44:59
there and pouring petrol on them and setting them alight, I mean,

00:45:02
just crazy stuff. And so to be able to help, and not only is it

00:45:07
great from a conservation perspective and protecting, you

00:45:11
know, these incredible unique Marine wilderness areas, um, but

00:45:14
also to, you know, the impact on local artesian or fishermen. Um,

00:45:19
the president of Liberia gave us the highest military honor for

00:45:22
work tackling illegal fishing there. Um, and then also once

00:45:26
again, just showcasing the impact that we're seeing with illegal

00:45:29
fishing. There's such a link with library, you know, much so much

00:45:33
of illegal fishing floats out there, uh, their slaves on board

00:45:36
because the fishing fleets that have, have traveled further and

00:45:39
further to get the catch, because they're fished out waters close

00:45:43
to the home, they can't get their costs of their maintenance of the

00:45:46
ship down. They can't get their fuel costs down, but I can get

00:45:49
the cost of the crew down by simply not paying them. And if

00:45:53
you don't like it though, throw overboard. And then some people

00:45:57
have been at sea for five years and not able to get home.

00:46:00
Matt Waters: Yeah, that's crazy. Isn't it? It is. But what, uh,

00:46:06
um, you know, with what you're doing in Africa, though, it's a

00:46:09
huge deterrent as well. Isn't it? So where it's been pilfered and

00:46:14
then just having that presence there now of having boats in the

00:46:17
water that have got people on board that can take action and

00:46:22
inspect the vessels, those that are trying to Dodge, um, the

00:46:27
legal routes. Uh, I'm sure, uh, staying, uh, more vigilant in

00:46:34
staying well out of the way.

00:46:36
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. Well, I mean, it only takes a handful of

00:46:38
arrests and the word gets out and even the legal ones, the ones

00:46:42
with licenses to be there in some places have been leaving the

00:46:46
entire ease it because they don't want to be, they don't want to be

00:46:49
inspected, you know? So, so there's that huge opportunity

00:46:55
there that you can protect a vast area of Marine ecosystem, you

00:46:58
know, it's huge. Um, you know, and David, um, David, um, it's

00:47:03
David Attenborough on the recent , um, a perfect planet episode

00:47:07
five where he neurites our work in, um, in Africa. And he talks

00:47:12
about how we arrested one vessel, the little Biko two, um, which

00:47:16
was set up to process deep, deep sea sharks, uh, for, for shark

00:47:20
liver oil. And that vessel had the ability to walk out of a half

00:47:25
a million sharks a year, and with one arrest, we're able to save

00:47:28
that. And, you know, David's, so David's talking about, you know,

00:47:32
the importance of sharks and our oceans, and also that they're

00:47:35
healthier oceans are the more rich and bio-diverse, they are

00:47:39
the greatest, they stand a chance in fighting against the impacts

00:47:42
of the climate, as well as the world's greatest carbon sink. So

00:47:46
it all ties in, you know, with, with, you know, the more, you

00:47:50
know, illegal fishing vessels that we stop. Uh, and the

00:47:53
breather that we give our oceans also ties in with the climate

00:47:56
fight, as well as our work in the bite and our work, um, cleaning

00:48:00
up a beaches around Australia and, you know, working with

00:48:03
indigenous Rangers in Arnhem land, you know, removing tons and

00:48:06
tons of Marine debris and, and nets from critical sea turtle,

00:48:10
nesting habitat, and sacred country to the young old people.

00:48:15
Matt Waters: When was that? Um, what was that huge haul of rope

00:48:19
you guys dragged in? Um, so many videos now,

00:48:26
Jeff Hansen: It wasn't, there was one, um, you probably thinking of

00:48:28
the one-off, um, uh, Cocus islands, where it was yeah. A

00:48:33
huge look like a big Moring line, or, um, it's huge amount of rope

00:48:37
that was just, you know, took our team a lot of effort to getting

00:48:40
out of the ocean. Um, but yeah, Cocos is, it's been tough for our

00:48:45
crew going, you know, volunteers they're getting there and, um,

00:48:48
and cleaning up there because they're just, they're just so

00:48:51
amazed by how much rubbish and marine debris is washing up on

00:48:54
the coast. Um, and you know, there are still beautiful parts

00:48:58
of Cocos that, you know, I guess a bit sheltered from the rubbish

00:49:02
and still a beautiful place to go and visit. There's still a lot of

00:49:05
work to do to actually clean it up. And a lot of that trash there

00:49:07
is coming from Asia. Um, but, uh , crew, I, I spoke to them as

00:49:13
they were there and they felt so in such despair because they're

00:49:17
cleaning up the beaches and some of the plastic they're pulling up

00:49:20
, um, pulling off the beaches, just disintegrates in their

00:49:23
hands. And as they're pulling it up, cleaning it up off the beach,

00:49:28
they're looking out to sea and they can see more just coming and

00:49:31
coming and coming. And they're like, what's the point? And it's

00:49:35
like, well, you know, not fighting these fights is not an

00:49:39
option. You know, you just to know where our planet's headed

00:49:44
and do nothing. That's just suicide. We've just got to do

00:49:47
what we can. And this is same mentality we had with previous

00:49:50
wars. You know, we, we didn't go well, the opposition's too big

00:49:54
and, um, what's the point we just give up no, we all fought. And

00:49:57
that's, I think that's the whole message here is if there's one

00:50:01
thing worth fighting for on this planet, it's it's life and

00:50:03
looking after the natural, natural beauty of our world, and

00:50:06
yeah, we've made a mess, but we've got to start somewhere and

00:50:09
start cleaning it up

00:50:11
Matt Waters: For sure. Yeah. And do you think, um, that the new

00:50:16
gen, the younger generations that are coming through are much more

00:50:18
aware than, um, those that are, you know, our age and older? Are

00:50:24
they more open to listen?

00:50:28
Jeff Hansen: Oh, absolutely. Yeah . I'm, I'm inspired by, I think

00:50:32
the curriculum now is teaching more kids about the natural world

00:50:35
and the impacts what's happening with plastics and climate, et

00:50:37
cetera, et cetera. We have the school strikers out there on the

00:50:41
street calling for action on climate. I was part of a panel a

00:50:44
couple of weeks ago, talking about climate. I was sat next to

00:50:47
a girl is 15 years old that just took the Australian government to

00:50:51
the federal court, um, and found that the Australian federal

00:50:55
environment minister has a duty of care for future generations.

00:50:58
And so, yeah, that's, I was nowehere near doing stuff like

00:51:03
that. Um, so yeah, it's inspiring to see where kids are at and

00:51:08
what's coming down the line. And to me that gives me a lot of hope

00:51:13
because I think, yeah, we've, we're having some great

00:51:15
environmental wins, but environmental wins are only

00:51:20
temporary, um, because you live to fight them another day, but if

00:51:24
we've got this younger generation coming through and we can hold

00:51:27
the line and we can bide us more time for more of us to wake up

00:51:30
and as younger generation voting more for the planet, then

00:51:34
hopefully our jobs will get a lot easier in the future.

00:51:37
Matt Waters: Operation Pahu?

00:51:41
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. So that's um, in New Zealand, we've got the

00:51:45
last of the, uh, well, I got the Mala dolphins, which are probably

00:51:49
one of the most endangered small dolphins in the world. They're

00:51:52
incredibly important to Mauri culture. Um, then we've got, you

00:51:57
know, all the different, other small spaces of dolphins that are

00:52:01
being impacted by fishing gear and fishing nets over there

00:52:04
caught in the gillnets, uh, as well. So our team in new

00:52:07
Zealand's there just trying to see what we can do to raise

00:52:11
awareness about, you know, if nets are being put in the wrong

00:52:13
place or placed in exclusion zones that are supposed to be,

00:52:17
you know, net free for the local, you know, Mauri and Hector

00:52:21
dolphins. So yeah, there's a lot of work, good work we're doing

00:52:24
there. It's only a small team in New Zealand. There's no one, no

00:52:27
one paid over there, but they do regular beach cleanups and do

00:52:31
what they can. Um, absolutely. So, and new Zealand's obviously

00:52:35
had, uh, a lot of crew members over the years, you know, on our

00:52:39
boats, standing in the Southern ocean, defending the southern

00:52:41
ocean whale sanctuary be that Australia and New Zealand

00:52:43
Antarctic territory places like the Ross sea, et cetera. So,

00:52:47
yeah, it's, um, I think that's where, you know, Paul Watson

00:52:52
started Sea Shepherd in 1977, um, you know, and it was really, I

00:52:57
don't think Paul expected it to get where it's got today was kind

00:53:00
of get a ship and go out and find the, the, the, um, the part

00:53:05
whaling vessel the Sierra, uh, the most notorious poaching

00:53:08
vessel and, um, locate that vessel and take it out of action

00:53:13
, um, which he did and, you know, which was just remarkable back in

00:53:17
the day, what Paul did. And I guess it's really grown from a

00:53:21
save the whales movement, um, to a save the oceans movement. And,

00:53:25
um, it just gets stronger and stronger. Um, it's funding is

00:53:30
always an issue. Like we, I think sea shepherd historically has

00:53:32
been incredibly good at delivering results, um, and

00:53:36
probably lacks the, the funding to, to support it. But we're

00:53:40
definitely something that we're working on.

00:53:42
Matt Waters: Yeah. And it's ever evolving. That's the thing. I

00:53:45
remember everything grows from somewhere and Paul started it and

00:53:50
look at the size of it now, where's it going to be in another

00:53:53
30, 40, 50 years?

00:53:55
Jeff Hansen: I think that's the thing with Paul is that, you

00:53:58
know, when I, you know, named or facilitated the naming of the

00:54:04
vessels of Steve Erwin and, and I spent like two weeks and, you

00:54:08
know, always, you know, working really hard to get that, that,

00:54:12
um, outcome happen. The email I got from Paul was, hi, Jeff, we

00:54:17
have permission to name the ship the Steve Erwin and we'll get

00:54:19
right on it. Paul and I read it and I went, oh, wow, that's

00:54:23
amazing. But then I'll read it again. It was that he didn't even

00:54:25
say thanks. And then I understood Paul's mentality really early on

00:54:32
as the founder of sea shepherd. I didn't do it for Paul. I wasn't

00:54:36
doing it for him. I was doing it for the movement and doing it for

00:54:41
the oceans. And that's the thing I really understood really early

00:54:44
on about Sea Shepherd, but also about Paul is that, you know, he

00:54:48
asked me to, you know, be the run sea shepherd in Australia back in

00:54:53
2008 and he's never micromanagement, you know, and

00:54:58
he's, he said that the best thing to do with power is just to give

00:55:02
it away, you know, and that's the way that Sea Shepherd has been

00:55:06
able to operate the way we've done over the years on a budget

00:55:11
globally of about$15 million, because it's about imagination

00:55:15
and passion and, um, you know, people from all over the world,

00:55:19
mostly volunteers, a handful of staff globally, um, and that sort

00:55:24
of ethics and values, um, is from the top all the way through like

00:55:28
our six global directors have all been on the front line. They've

00:55:32
all been on the ships, be there in Antarctica, you know, play off

00:55:36
Africa. They've all been on the front line, defending our oceans.

00:55:39
So they've, they all come with a love of the natural world, a deep

00:55:42
understanding of its ecological importance and, you know, a real

00:55:46
passion for being lean and effective. I mean, I, I'm the

00:55:51
managing director for Australia and one of the six global

00:55:53
directors. And yet I run Sasha, but from a donated office desk in

00:55:58
Fremantle, from a company that UDL, urban design landscape

00:56:02
architects, they're passionate about what we do. I said, look,

00:56:05
there's a free desk, free coffee, free internet, go for it. And I,

00:56:10
I love that. I love that we can be, you know, have not have these

00:56:14
big offices. And, you know, when we, we meet donors, we can say

00:56:18
hand on heart. You know, that they're part of this, they're

00:56:20
part of the victories. There is these are as much our supporters

00:56:24
and donors is a crew on the front line. And you know, we're not

00:56:29
building all this capacity, um, in terms of big offices and

00:56:33
wasting donor's money. Yeah.

00:56:35
Matt Waters: Yeah. It's been put to good use, has to be, um, not

00:56:39
political seats. Yeah. Yeah,

00:56:42
Jeff Hansen: Absolutely. And it's, it's important, you know,

00:56:44
it's, it's important to say hand on heart that, you know, I

00:56:48
wouldn't waste my time with an organization that wasn't

00:56:51
delivering tangible results and wasn't true to its values right

00:56:55
down the line. Now ships are all plant-based ships, there's no

00:56:58
meat, right on products on our ships and merchandise is all eco

00:57:02
ethical, you know, right down the line, you know, organic cottons

00:57:05
and dyes and no sweat shops, et cetera. Um, and any Sea Shepherd

00:57:09
event always has to be plant-based, you know, so we

00:57:13
follow everything right down the line.

00:57:15
Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. It's good to see. And there's plenty

00:57:18
of, um, you know, you talked about the volunteers and everyone

00:57:22
doing that, that good bit around the country and indeed around the

00:57:25
world. Um, I see a lot of markets and market stalls, um, being very

00:57:33
active here in Australia and I think it's fun. Marvelous,

00:57:36
absolutely marvelous.

00:57:37
Jeff Hansen: Well, these volunteers, uh, you know, they

00:57:40
they're, they're moms and dads and people with lives and they're

00:57:43
giving up their spare time to get up, sometimes it's dark to pack

00:57:48
the car, to get into the local markets and raise funds and

00:57:52
awareness. There are no commission they're not paid, um,

00:57:55
or they organizing a cleanup and they get down like clean up the

00:57:58
beach, but then they've got to go home and get all the gloves and

00:58:02
all the tubs and everything and wash it all out and get it, get

00:58:05
it dried for the next next time and do a cleanup. And these

00:58:08
people are getting paid nothing. Um, and that's when, when you

00:58:13
think, you know, in, in me, in my position, I've done all that as

00:58:16
well, but it's also, I feel lucky that I've done every role in sea

00:58:20
shepherd that we have now paid in Australia. Um, so that comes with

00:58:24
a great level of respect and understanding and appreciation

00:58:27
for what they do. But also when we have our volunteers out there

00:58:32
working so hard, um, because they know that we're lean in

00:58:35
effective, but that also keeps me honest as well to know that

00:58:38
there's people out there that are giving up so much. So we have to

00:58:42
be, you know, true to our values all the way down the line.

00:58:47
Matt Waters: I applaud each and every one of them bravo. Um,

00:58:52
Jeff, I think we'll, um, we'll wrap it up for now. Um, however,

00:58:57
um, thank you very much for coming on the show.

00:59:00
Jeff Hansen: Ah, thanks, Matt. It was a real delight

00:59:03
Matt Waters: And spending a good portion of your afternoon, sat in

00:59:05
your car. haha!

00:59:08
Jeff Hansen: Well, I'm just parked right opposite the Swan

00:59:10
river. And in fact, I'm looking out over the dash. All I can see

00:59:14
is water. So this is often I run through here on my morning run

00:59:20
sometimes or ride, and I've even seen bottlenose dolphins here and

00:59:25
I've even seen the odd bull shark in the shallows here. So yeah.

00:59:31
Lovely, beautiful, beautiful. It's it's a good place to live.

00:59:35
Um, but, uh, yeah. Thanks Matt, for having us on the show, man,

00:59:38
I've really enjoyed meeting with you and connecting with you and,

00:59:41
um, yeah. We've whatever. However, we use the ocean for

00:59:45
oxygen or diving or whatever. We've got to be custodians for

00:59:49
our occeans. They are our primary life support

00:59:52
Matt Waters: A hundred percent. And I openly invite Sea Shepherd

00:59:56
representative to come on the show and tell me their

00:59:58
experiences as well. I really enjoy that. Um, we've got a new

01:00:03
website coming out soon and it all has a small bio pages. So for

01:00:10
example, uh, this episode Jeff's episode, will have a little bio

01:00:15
on Jeff and a few quick fire questions, but all the links to

01:00:19
sea shepherd and everything we've spoken about in the show will be

01:00:21
in there as well. And the same goes for anyone else who comes on

01:00:25
the show. So put the word out in sea shepherd, get them on board a

01:00:29
bit more than keen to have them tune in and create some more

01:00:33
magic

01:00:34
Jeff Hansen: Sounds great, Matt. I know they'd love to sign up and

01:00:37
have a chat and uh, yeah, we'll see where this relationship

01:00:43
plays, but it's all, it's all good.

01:00:45
Matt Waters: Good stuff. All exciting. Yeah. Oh, Hey, I'll

01:00:49
tell you what I didn't ask you before you go. Um, Scuba Goat. I

01:00:53
keep forgetting to ask the question. Um, greatest of all

01:00:56
time dive, probably the most difficult question you're going

01:00:59
to get after this year.

01:01:03
Jeff Hansen: Hmm. Yeah, that's that's I feel very spoiled

01:01:07
because of dive. The Galapagos was my first dive, uh, which was

01:01:14
quite remarkable. Um, and I've, you know, I've done snorkeling in

01:01:19
Tonga with humpbacks and I've done snorkeling in an Exmouth

01:01:24
with, um, whale sharks and, Manta Rays, which was probably one of

01:01:28
the most enjoyable experiences just lying on the water. I was,

01:01:33
it wasn't diving. I was just snorkeling, but I had, you know,

01:01:36
mantas just coming through one after the other, um, probably

01:01:40
about 30 of them in a feeding pattern. And they where probably

01:01:43
10 meters away from me at the start. But in the end they were

01:01:46
right next to me or I had to move back otherwise the whole gamut

01:01:48
they were going to hit me. Um, I really enjoyed that, that

01:01:52
experience, um, diving, I mean, I've, I feel lucky to have dived

01:01:56
at Pearson island. It's such a healthy Marine environments, so

01:02:01
lash, um, and just, you know, I remember seeing the film crew

01:02:08
that were trying to get some footage for Northern pictures and

01:02:11
filming a, um, a piece for ABC. And now we're trying to get all

01:02:15
the Australian sea lions and, and they're all over and probably

01:02:19
about 20 meters away from me. And I just sat on the bottom and I

01:02:23
had five or six Australian sea lions with me. I had, I had, um,

01:02:26
a female just sitting on the bottom, just looking at me,

01:02:29
staring at me and a big male with it, with a neck that was just so

01:02:33
thick and his face right in front of me. And I just sat there and I

01:02:38
was just like, how good's this beautiful, clear water. I was

01:02:43
just relaxed and breathing and have these sea lions just

01:02:46
connecting with me. So, yeah, that's probably my, one of my

01:02:50
favorite experiences, um, diving. Absolutely. It's pretty

01:02:53
remarkable stuff of, of a place that very few Australians know

01:02:58
about. And I think that's where you mentioned about the bight

01:03:00
I've shown footage of the bight to Australians and people in

01:03:05
Hollywood, um, and Australians have going, how did I not know

01:03:10
about this place? So yeah, there's people that don't know

01:03:14
Matt Waters: There's two sides to it as well. Isn't that you want

01:03:16
to tell everyone and show them how amazing it is, but at the

01:03:19
same time, nah, let's keep it a nice little secret. It's

01:03:23
beautiful. It's absolutely amazing. I'm going to head down

01:03:26
there next year.

01:03:27
Jeff Hansen: Oh, you got to do it. And I think that's the thing,

01:03:29
like there's, there's an element where you want to try and keep

01:03:31
things quiet, but when that's sometimes while big industry

01:03:37
takes advantage of that, if it's remote and there's few people, so

01:03:40
then you're kind of left with the story. You've got to tell the

01:03:43
story of what and, and bring, bring these places into the land

01:03:47
rooms of people all over the world to join the fight.

01:03:50
Matt Waters: Yeah. And that's it. I mean, if they, if there's

01:03:53
people out there listening to this podcast and they're not

01:03:55
involved in sea shepherd and they have a genuine passion for what

01:03:58
we've been talking about, get involved, just get onto sea

01:04:02
shepherd, represent, get involved. There's always

01:04:05
something you can help with.

01:04:07
Jeff Hansen: Yeah. Plenty of things. And even people that

01:04:09
think, well, I can't be on a ship and you might be even someone

01:04:13
that, you know, can't get out there and do much physical work.

01:04:16
There's always something that people can do. Yeah, for sure.

01:04:19
Matt Waters: For sure. And then those that were the lottery, they

01:04:21
can give us a load of money.

01:04:26
Jeff Hansen: We'll put it to good use.

01:04:28
Matt Waters: Jeff again, thank you very much for coming on the

01:04:31
show and I appreciate it immensely. Um, have a good

01:04:34
afternoon and uh, we'll speak again soon.

01:04:38
Jeff Hansen: You too, Matt. Thanks again. Um, really enjoyed

01:04:40
our chat.

01:04:41
Matt Waters: Thanks man. Bye-bye everybody podcast for the

01:04:47
inquisitive diver.

Jeff Hansen

Managing Director - Sea Shepherd Australia

Related Episodes

Jeff Hansen - Sea Shepherd Global Director