Gareth Lock - Inspirational founder of The Human Diver

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Matt: Podcast for the inquisitive diver. Hey there, dive buddies

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and welcome to the show. My next guest has served 25 years in the

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Royal air force and fell in love with the sport of diving way back

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in 1999, he recognized that there was a significant similarity

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between life as a military man and that of a diver teamwork.

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However, there was an even more significant difference between

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the two when compared through the holistic ethos lens, he decided

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to do something about this and same self, a mission to

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introducing human factors, training into the diving

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profession globally. In 2019, he released a book entitled under

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pressure, which has since sold thousands of copies. Now I have

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to admit that I respect and admire him for his brave

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contributions to the dive industry. And I say brave, not

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because I'm admitting a macro shuttle rather than I recognize

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that difficulties and individual may face in attempting to create

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change, even when it is for the betterment of all involved. I

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honestly believe that what he has done so far will most definitely

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save lives and probably already has done. So, Mr. Gareth Locke,

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it's an absolute pleasure to meet you. Welcome to the show.

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Gareth: Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. It says

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great to have an invite on here and yeah, it has been a challenge

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and has required a significant amount of persistence to, to get

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this girl.

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Matt: Yeah, I bet. So, um, w w was it a little bit like a red

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flag football or something to you ? Like a little Jack Russell just

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chomping at the heels?

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Gareth: Well, my, my sort of personality traits are about sort

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of values based and it's like, I've got to get this done. And,

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and that actually has been a bit of a hindrance when I first

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started, because it was this, uh , evangelical approach of you

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have to change and, and a few people off and burnt a few

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bridges and took a number of years to, to rebuild those. Um,

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and I think that's the same with anybody. Who's got a strong value

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based. Who's trying to create change. It's, it's tempering

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that, that attitude to look for the long game, rather than trying

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to do something. Now, you're never going to change the

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direction of, uh, uh, you know, saying iceberg, you know, the one

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that's broken off the Antarctica, you're never going to change that

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direction really easily. Um, it takes little nudges and actually

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where I've had the biggest successes is bottom up rather

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than top down. Um, because there are people at the bottom who

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recognize actually this is really useful, knowledgeable stuff that

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as you say will, and I already know that with people, who've

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emailed me saying, you know what? I listened to, you know, a

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webinar or a podcast, or read something of yours or watch their

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phone only. And that's changed my attitude as to how, um, how I've

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approached a and I've thumbed it early, uh, or I've not got in, or

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I've changed what we were going to do. And to me, that that's a

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huge, huge buzz because it's like, yes, you know, the, the

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changing one person at a time is , uh, this is how you can change

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the world. Yeah. It takes a long time.

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Matt: Well, you've got to start somewhere and then just spread

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the legs. Um, now just to back it up, uh, we smudge for those

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people that are listening that have no clue what human factors

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is. Do you want to try and break it down into its most simplistic

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form? Just so we've got a basis to go from. Yeah,

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Gareth: Yeah, yeah, sure. So in its simplest term, it is how to

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make it easier to do the right thing and harder to do the wrong

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thing. And that means looking at individuals, it means looking at

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work or tasks, and he's looking at equipment, it means looking at

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interactions and paperwork and understand how to reduce the

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friction to do the right thing. So for example, you know,

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checklists are a big thing in diving at moments. And then when

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you look at how they're written, they're often sweeping

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generalization here, a written from a point of view of liability

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rather than execution. So there's a huge body of evidence that

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says, how do you design a checklist that takes human

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performance variability that could be errors, um, and try to

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design them out and a checklist. Isn't just a piece of paper floor

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. It doesn't, it's not just a piece of paper to make it

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effective. It requires a social and a cultural setup and a mental

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approach that says I'm using this checklist because I'm fallible

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and I will make a mistake and it's getting that message across.

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So there's a whole raft of issues that, that need to be addressed

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in a, as you sort of touched on earlier holistic manner or

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systemic way, rather than trying to cherry pick or fix the diver.

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Cause they're there, the stupid ones is actually creating an

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environment where it's easier to do the right thing and harder to

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do the wrong thing. Yeah.

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Matt: Yeah. And I suppose one of the major barriers that you've

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got there is, um, piece of people's personal feelings of

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embarrassment. If they're going to thumb a dive when everyone

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else has more confident or more experienced, whatever,

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Gareth: Oh, totally. That, you know, the peer pressure that

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we're under and the, you know, ultimately we're social

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creatures. We, we like to be conform to the social norms. And,

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and that's why, you know, you can start to create change at a lower

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level with individuals and small groups, because then you can

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start to get a swelling it's quite difficult to create change

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top down because you still need to create that, that swell, that,

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that, that influence and social conformance that happens. But you

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know, that that sort of peer pressure, it might be touched on

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in, in diver training and instructor development. But I

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don't think it's anywhere near emphasized how much influence

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instructors leaders and peers have on others' behaviors. And

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you don't have to say something almost silence is enough to speak

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volumes. Um, when somebody questions is this a good idea?

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And I, nobody even acknowledges that, that, you know, Oh, I'm not

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sure about this Barbie. Okay. And you haven't actually said

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anything or you've just agreed with them. Um, so there's,

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there's a huge bit that that looks at, or that should be

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looked at in terms of interactions.

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Matt: Hmm. So the idea behind the training that you provide is to

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teach people not only how to recognize it in themselves, but

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have the confidence to be able to say so, and also recognize it in

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other people within the group that I'm in with.

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Gareth: Yeah, totally. I mean, and actually the core of the

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training is based around the premise of creating a shared

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mental model and an idea of what we're going to do as a team and

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why are we going to do it? And that means that if there is some

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form of dissent, you know, which is a good thing or some conflict

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that the, the peers and the leadership have created

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environment where actually you don't need to have courage. Um,

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there's often this bit of people, you know, that you need to be

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brave to speak up. This level of bravery is needed to overcome

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some fear. And the fear is generated by the social

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environment that the leaders, the instructors, the peer group that

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are there and therefore it's their responsibility to change

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that attitude, that, that, uh, environment, so that it is easy

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to speak up rather than having to be brave and go, well, I'm going

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to put my neck out on the line here because I'm going to say

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something that isn't quite right. Um, so it's, yeah, there's a lot

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to do. And that is a normal human thing. Um, because we are, if we

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go back, you know, thousands of years to the African Savannah,

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where you lived in a tribe in a thorn Bush ring, because that was

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the protection from the lines, Hey, you had to be conformed to

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the norms of the group because as long as you got booted out,

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outside the phone book and you're on your own, so there are very

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good reasons why we have social conformance, whether or not there

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is as valid as they are, is a different thing, but you know,

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it's hardwired. So yeah, the training is, is create that

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shared mental model so that people know what's happening

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next. And if something deviates, then they're able to sort of ask

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the question and say, is this right? Are we going in the right

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direction? Is this the right part of the wreck? Shouldn't we have

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turned round on the reef at this point, you know, it's, there,

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there are lots of things where, where this applies. Hmm.

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Matt: So when we're talking about it straight away, I'm thinking

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about a blog that I wrote about three years ago. And then I was

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trying to describe, um, newcomers to the dive and industry or those

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that want to do that open water training. And the two examples I

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had was the alpha male who, you know, really big. I can do all

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this and don't need to listen. And, uh, the timid lady, you

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know, who would just focus and then do and do everything

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correct. And for me, the human factor error all the way I see it

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though, is that Mr. Belli big, the alpha male, um, was, was hide

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in his true, um, fears and incompetencies of what was

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coming. And I think it does make me look towards the, uh,

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professional side of dive in and ask the question if there's been

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people qualified to hastily too quickly and, you know, thinking

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of zero to hero. And then all of a sudden, you're now teaching

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people who have no clue how to dive in a wide variety of, um,

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scenarios. Um, I suppose you bring in human factors into it

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kind of puts a big question, Mark all over all of that stuff that

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the majority of us in the dive industry know it occurs, but

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don't really approach the subject.

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Gareth: Yeah. It it's, um, it is a bit of an elephant in the room.

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And so going to, to a wider sort of safety view as to why that

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perception exists of why the current practices are okay, a lot

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of safety is measured as the absence of accidents. So if you

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don't have any accidents and we don't have any injuries, um, we

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must be doing something right now that doesn't take into account

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the number of people who are scared, um, who go off and do

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some training and an, a terrified , um, they they've got that tick

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and they've moved on and gone. I went diving, but I didn't like

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it. And yet there shouldn't be a reason for that. Yes, there will

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be a small percentage who are, um , not suited to diving and, you

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know, and they aren't, um, being the right mental place to be

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underwater. So, you know, you then look at, so the sort of why

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the situation ends up as it is, is because you can cut away the

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safety margins, the experience, the time that people are supposed

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to do during training. And until you have lots of accidents, you

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must be doing something. Okay. And again, that's normal human

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behavior. We will look for short term gains over waiting for

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long-term benefits. Um, and, and in the case of, of diving and

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instruction and the zero, the hero of it is cool. I get to be a

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dive instructor. And I, I, you know, I get to make money out of

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my hobby. Um, and you're right. That as long as, as long as the

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training environment in which the students are being taught is not

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very, um, risky, you know, that there's no additional Jake

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dangers involved and everything goes fine. That actually the

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training must have been okay. The problem is we don't know what's

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going to happen on the, on the dive or with a student. And so

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actually you need to have a, almost a bigger box. You've got

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the, sort of the core competencies or core skills that

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you need. And then there's the bit that says, sit a bit further

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out than that, that says these there excursions that you might

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have. And my, you know, my personal view is a lot of diver

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instructor training is teaching instructors how to teach a

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student how to pass a class, which is not the same as how to

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teach a diver, how to dive in the real world. Um, and, and if your

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measure is, is people graduating well, w without issues, you must

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be doing something right. Um,

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Matt: Yeah. And that inherent skill embedded into second

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nature.

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Gareth: Yeah. And they get out of jail card for the organizations

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is you are only, uh, certified to dive in conditions equal to

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better than you've already been certified. Um, so that, that's

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the bit that says, well, actually, you, you went diving in

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the condition that you weren't trained for. Therefore, it's your

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fault. It's like, well, hang on a minute. You know, you've got to

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look at this at a system level rather than an individual level.

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Matt: Yeah. But what, where does the system start and stop for

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you? Because I was kind of discussing this podcast before we

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started a, a couple of days ago. Actually, I've got a buddy of

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mine coming on next week. I Steinback, no, look, I, um, he's

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a cost director up in Cairns. And I wanted to clarify for myself,

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albeit I am a multi-agency instructor. I wanted to know

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specifically where the law starts and stops when it comes to

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training. And it's so ambiguous, isn't it? And he, his answer was

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literally when that, when people are in training, then you have to

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follow the letter of the law. And the letter of the law is written

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by whichever agency is teaching and whichever agency you're

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teaching under. But as soon as that person is qualified and they

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go off on their own, there's then no law that says a diver can't do

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what they want. Um, so as soon as they are outside the boundaries

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of what they've been taught, then, you know, the agencies are

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safe.

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Gareth: Oh, totally. And you know, the way that risk is

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managed is all about risk transference. So from an eight,

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you know, if I look at, so you ask the question, where's the

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boundary of the system that this to me, the system starts at the

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agency's level, or actually the bodies above. So the rebury, the

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trainee council, the recreation, scuba training council, the world

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recreation, steward, training council. Those are the levels.

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That's the, this almost the top boundary. There might be some

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government regulation that sits above that depending on the

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country you're in. And then it ends down at the individual

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diver. Now that's the system, whether or not people have

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control or influence about what happens within that system. Well,

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that's, that's the way that the system has been constructed. And

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so the way the organizations are set up is about transferring risk

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from them liability to the lowest level possible. That's what any

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organization would do. So the use of liability waivers, uh,

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transfers all of those things. It's about getting the risk down

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to the diver and or the instructor. Um, you know, your

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point about agency standards. I have to teach to the agency

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standards because otherwise, if something goes wrong, I'm liable.

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Now those agency standards may not be the best that are out

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there, but they are at a level which allows the agency to manage

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their own individual risk. Um, by bypassing it on, you know, is it

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achievable to do those tasks? Yes. Right. It's an instructor

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problem. If something goes wrong, if a diver goes out on a dive

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operation, they will nearly always sign, uh, what, depending

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on where you are in the world, liability waiver forms. Um, and

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now I am accepting responsibility for what happens on this dive.

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Now, interestingly in the UK. And I think Europe, they have to

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change the liability waiver forms because I cannot sign away my

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right for your incompetence. Now, you know, to Sue based on that, I

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can't Sue based on my end competence, but I can suit based

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on your incompetence. Um, whereas a lot of international waiver

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forms basically say, I even Sue you, if you're incompetent,

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there's time, we'll hang on a minute. That's your

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responsibility to look after me. So, you know, where does the

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system, and, and start that it's about when those students are in

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their class, teaching them about the genuine risks that exist, not

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just about the physical risk of being underwater, but also the

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social risks that are there. So peer pressure, or the fact that

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we will drift, we will have this normalization of deviance and

00:18:23
Dan, or has just published a great piece in GEs in-depth blog

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today, talking about normalization of deviance and,

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you know, looking at the fact that it is a normal behavior to

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go from here's my rules and I'm drifting. And I will, I will say,

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reduce my minimum gas. I'm going to end a dive with, or exceed my

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deck or the runtime or whatever it is. And everything goes okay,

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or it could be having more students on a class than you're

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supposed to because I generate more revenue that way, but things

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don't go wrong. Therefore nobody knows what what's happening. So

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explaining these normal human behaviors allows risk to be

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better managed after the training course or whatever it is,

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understanding those error producing conditions, the

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stressors that lead us to erode the safety margins that are on,

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um, that is not explicitly taught in the training materials that,

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that I've had people come, my ports go, and I'm an instructor

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for this agency and this agency, and so-and-so this isn't, it

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might be touched on, but it is not explicitly explained. And it

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really should be put into the training programs that are there.

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Matt: Sure. Are you trying to get them in there? You must be.

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Gareth: I, I am. And I have been for quite a while, and I

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understand the resistance from their part because actually, and

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this is often something that's forgotten is that the training

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agencies are businesses, albeit you know, publishing houses to

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develop training materials that then sell onto instructor,

00:20:06
trainers and instructors, and then students trying to make

00:20:10
money out of human factors based training is really difficult

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because it doesn't actually give you anything extra. It doesn't

00:20:19
allow you to go diving any deeper. It doesn't lay to use any

00:20:22
new equipment. Um, what it does is it allows you to use your

00:20:26
brain a bit more effectively. I think also part of the resistance

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is that the majority of the decision makers in the, the

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training agencies have never done any training with me. So they

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don't even know what the programs are about and how it could fit

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into their existing training materials. So there's a bit of,

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um, let me say genuine ignorance , um, from, from their part of

00:20:56
what it looks like and how it can fit in. And the difficulty is

00:21:00
that I'm not a diving instructor, so I don't reach any of those

00:21:04
agencies. So I don't know what the materials look like, where it

00:21:09
slot in, where you could tell a specific story about maybe

00:21:14
cognitive biases, why we make the decisions we do, or how to create

00:21:19
effective communications within a team, um, by using certain

00:21:24
techniques that are there or how a team evolves in a training

00:21:28
environment, and then how it evolves in the real world diving

00:21:32
environment and the weaknesses that, that need to be recognized

00:21:35
and dealt with. So it's a bit of a, an unknown from their side and

00:21:40
I get it, you know, that they're there to make money, um, that

00:21:44
they're not charities

00:21:45
Matt: I'm gonna, I'm gonna play devil's advocate. And, um, it

00:21:49
obviously does have a massive place in our industry, but

00:21:55
doesn't have a place in recreational dive in for your,

00:22:00
some of vacation kind of guys that dive once or twice a year

00:22:03
that can't even remember how to put their equipment together. Are

00:22:06
they going to be able to remember what, what human factors is it

00:22:09
about?

00:22:11
Gareth: Um, so actually the real benefit of if human factors is

00:22:16
taught well is it's transparent to the activities that you're

00:22:23
doing. Um, and I suppose to answer your question, is there

00:22:29
something that that can help? Yes. So at a, at a recreational

00:22:34
level is the recognition that they're fallible, that they will

00:22:37
make mistakes. That that's the first thing. Um, and then look at

00:22:43
what are the strategies for, um, making sure that we reduce the

00:22:48
likelihood and that would be doing pre dive check. You know,

00:22:51
that that's a checklist, it's making sure that the instructors

00:22:56
and the dive masters who are operating in that environment,

00:23:00
role model, correct behaviors, because the, those recreational

00:23:05
divers, if you know, they're there for a week, um, on a

00:23:08
holiday and they might be diving three or four times, they will

00:23:12
look to the instructor or the dive master, or the guide for

00:23:16
what should be being done. And if the instructors and that the

00:23:20
guides dive masters, don't do any pre dive checks. You know, the,

00:23:25
the, uh, the clients will then turn around and go, Oh, cool.

00:23:28
When you get to be really good, you don't have to do checks,

00:23:32
whereas actually the other way round. So it's, it's how you

00:23:35
influence others. So it doesn't have to be pure directive and

00:23:41
part of the lesson, but it can be influenced and role model by

00:23:47
behaviors, by others within the, or by others within the, this

00:23:51
sort of system that, that the dive center or, or the liverboard

00:23:54
or whatever.

00:23:55
Matt: And to be honest, I mean, you touched on one of my pet

00:23:58
hates, there is people not setting up their own equipment

00:24:01
and not know how to do it properly. And I spent a year in

00:24:04
two fi in Papua New Guinea, and every diver that came to visit

00:24:08
and dive with us, had to do their own equipment sets up before they

00:24:12
go on the boat just the first time. And then the boys would

00:24:15
take over and they could check as the boys go. But just for my own

00:24:19
sanity and sanitization, you do your own gear and you would be

00:24:23
amazed at how many guests would complain because they have to do

00:24:28
their own equipment. And then the humility, when they realize that

00:24:32
they don't know how to do their own equipment, because they've

00:24:34
not done it for so long now, surely that answered an inherent

00:24:38
problem. That's going on in our industry already with trying to

00:24:41
be too customer Carey. And, you know, um, and again, for the

00:24:49
guests that are assuming everything's going to be done for

00:24:51
them now leads me onto another little point. We were discussing

00:24:54
a couple of days ago, and that's the, um, I'm going to go on a

00:24:58
little rant now, um, assumption and, uh, Dougal, Windsor Wilson

00:25:04
on Facebook. He asks about assumptions as well. And the

00:25:07
assumptions from the guests there that that dive guide is going to

00:25:10
do everything for them. It is my pet hate that people expect a

00:25:15
dive pro to look after them on the boat, under the water. If

00:25:20
there's any emergencies, the diaper is going to sort it out.

00:25:22
And then if anything goes wrong, the dive bros, asphalt and all of

00:25:28
this stuff, and I don't want to rent too much. All of this stuff

00:25:31
is in my opinion, what you are trying to get clarification on

00:25:37
for the world and get it set straight, where everyone

00:25:40
everyone's in their own little box, everyone works as a team.

00:25:43
Everyone knows how everything should and does happen. And then

00:25:47
we've got clarity, hopefully.

00:25:50
Gareth: Yeah. So, you know, going right back to, where does the

00:25:54
system begin if you think about where those divers have got those

00:26:00
assumptions and those behaviors from is when they would have been

00:26:04
learned to dive and as guests, they will have been given the

00:26:09
minimum amount of instruction time, um, to set up their gear.

00:26:16
It would have been demoed, and then they would have been, you

00:26:20
know, stuffed would have been done for them. Tick, you've done

00:26:22
that skill. You've put your reg on the cylinder, you put your BC

00:26:26
on the cylinder, right? Done. You've demonstrated you can do

00:26:30
that skill. Now we've got people who will do that for you. So all

00:26:33
you need to do is pitch up, listen to some lectures, you

00:26:36
know, again, sweeping generalizations, listen to some

00:26:39
lectures, watch some videos, get on the boat, go out to the dive

00:26:43
site. And, you know, you get fed and watered and treated nicely.

00:26:47
You get kitted up, people help you with, with what's going on.

00:26:51
And then you jump in and somebody is going to shepherd you. And so,

00:26:54
you know, a lot of that, that initial diver training and

00:26:58
development, you will have an instructor with you, or you have

00:27:01
a guide with your dive master with you. And there isn't the

00:27:05
clarity that says you are responsible for your activities.

00:27:11
I'm paying you a shed load of money to take me diving. Then I'm

00:27:15
taking you to the dive site and you have that. So there is this

00:27:20
looking at, how does it make sense for somebody write it? I'm

00:27:24
going to say the sharp end as a term from the safety world, the

00:27:27
person who's right at the coalface, you know, doing stuff,

00:27:31
how does it make sense for them to do what they did? Well, if you

00:27:33
look back at their experiential journey and, and how they

00:27:37
developed and, and how they got to where they are, that's, that's

00:27:41
why they behave the way they do and why?

00:27:44
Matt: Well, I've got to pick on you. You did say it's a sweeping

00:27:47
statement. It is a big sweeping statement because there's a lot

00:27:50
of instructors out there that are very, very good and very

00:27:53
meticulous at what they do. But over time you add in skill fade

00:27:58
and the ignorance of, you know, future guests and liverboards,

00:28:03
and, and, you know, more lackadaisical dive professionals,

00:28:07
then yeah, it will creep in, but I just wanted to make sure we

00:28:11
don't get shot down in flames there that all professionals.

00:28:15
Gareth: Yeah. And so, yeah, I totally agree. And there are lots

00:28:20
of professionals out there, and actually we only hear about the

00:28:24
negative outcomes that are there. They, you know, they have a, uh,

00:28:29
a disproportional effect to our understanding, and that's a

00:28:33
cognitive bias. You know, we have a recall or a recency effect

00:28:37
where if something happens and it's got emotional, significant,

00:28:41
emotional, um, baggage associated with it, we'll be able to recall

00:28:45
it more easily. And, you know, going back to defending the

00:28:49
organizations, numerically, statistically diving is pretty

00:28:54
safe. You've probably got more chance of being killed or injured

00:28:57
driving to the dive site than you do on the dive. Now that doesn't

00:29:03
mean we shouldn't improve what goes on in diving, but if you

00:29:07
look at it from an organizational point of view of how much risk

00:29:11
are we willing to tolerate? Well, that's a, that's a sound number.

00:29:16
Now, you won't get any of the organizations to tell you what

00:29:19
that, uh, you know, as low as reasonably practicable number is

00:29:24
because that would be, you know, commercial, reputational, suicide

00:29:27
to say, yes, we're happy with a fatality rate of X, uh, in, in

00:29:32
those sectors. And to be honest, it's not our problem. We've given

00:29:36
them the standards off they go. Um, so, you know, we go back to

00:29:41
transparency, risk management again. Yeah.

00:29:44
Matt: Now, um, I know you've had a struggle all the way along the

00:29:48
journey so far bringing this into the dive industry, but I've got

00:29:51
to ask when you released the book, you must have seen quite a

00:29:55
significant upturn of interest. It seems to explode when you, uh,

00:30:01
when you released that book.

00:30:04
Gareth: Yeah. And so I'd been struggling. So I suppose the

00:30:07
journey started in 2010 11, where I wrote a white paper looking

00:30:15
about diving incident reporting and, um, safety management in the

00:30:20
UK diving industry. And, and it went down like a bit of a lead

00:30:23
balloon. Um, and shortly after that, I started a PhD part-time

00:30:28
self funded PhD. Um, and the struggle there was, nobody was

00:30:35
really interested in what I was doing. My goal was to try and

00:30:40
produce something like a, um, something that happens in

00:30:43
aviation, where they've got a structure, which looks at

00:30:45
organizational failures, supervisory failures, individual

00:30:50
failures, where we set ourselves up. So we're tired, or we're not

00:30:52
prepared or things like, and then there's the act of failure. So we

00:30:55
make a slip or a mistake or a lapse, or we, we break a rule. So

00:31:00
that went on for about six years. And in the end I stopped doing it

00:31:04
because I was spending money. I wasn't getting anywhere, but in

00:31:07
January, 2016, I ran the first face-to-face training program

00:31:15
that developed, um, as a pilot that went well, another one in

00:31:18
February, another one in April. And then somebody said, well, why

00:31:22
don't you do the pre-learning that's there and set it up as a

00:31:25
standalone course. And I got some traction there as people doing

00:31:29
online learning and got some really positive feedback from

00:31:32
people saying, look, this stuff is, you know, should be in the

00:31:35
training materials. And it wasn't until probably the spring of 18

00:31:41
where I was running a face-to-face class. And somebody

00:31:44
had said, why don't you write a book about this? Because people

00:31:47
will consume it as a book rather than doing online materials. So I

00:31:52
had thought about that. So then they spent the next probably from

00:31:56
the summer four or five months in, in the summer of 18 writing

00:32:01
it, and then the next sort of six months getting it edited and

00:32:06
turned around and things like that. And I'd spent a fair amount

00:32:11
of time trying, you know, three marketing training of how do I

00:32:15
market this, because it's a really difficult topic to market

00:32:19
because I was trying to do it from a safety perspective. And

00:32:23
you never market, um, away from a threat. What you do is you Mark

00:32:29
it towards a benefit because it's what people will want, not what

00:32:34
people are trying to get away from. Right. Um, so I'd spent a

00:32:37
lot of time how to try and market this. So I spent the total end of

00:32:43
18 marketing the book and getting the first two chapters out there

00:32:50
so people could go on. So I had a pretty big list by the time the

00:32:56
book was released in March 19. And I spent a lot of time

00:33:01
packaging up and signing books and posting them out. And then it

00:33:05
starts getting into the hands of, you know, it's a terrible term

00:33:09
influences and not just in the sort of sports diving industry,

00:33:13
but in the scientific and the military and the commercial, and

00:33:17
actually people in traditional safety as well. We'll pick it up

00:33:21
and go, Oh, hang on. This is really good. And then it starts

00:33:24
spreading out. So yeah, the, the rise was, was, was really nice to

00:33:30
see because it's like, yes, there is, there is value being created

00:33:34
out there. Yeah. What I write in the books now, though, is

00:33:38
knowledge is not enough. We must apply willing is not enough. We

00:33:42
must do. Um, and, and it's attributed to Bruce leave that

00:33:46
came from God before that we'll go to, um, and you know, it's

00:33:51
great. I read this now, do something with it. I mean, that

00:33:56
means I have to change what I change to change requires a bit

00:34:00
of effort and energy and things like that. But starting to get

00:34:03
people to talk about things is it's been huge benefit.

00:34:07
Matt: Yeah. And is it, um, is the way forward to, um, introduce

00:34:13
human factors to the newer divers, the younger divers, the

00:34:17
ones that are more accepted, uh, that more, they're more keen to,

00:34:24
to absorb the information that's going to help them progress

00:34:28
rather than the, the ones that might be stuck in their ways and

00:34:31
find it difficult to introduce that change.

00:34:35
Gareth: Um, so actually I've now got five other instructors who

00:34:39
are, so it's not just me. I've got, um, I've got two in the

00:34:43
States or two in Canada at the moment. Um, I got one in Belgium

00:34:47
Holland, I've got one in Egypt and, um, our traveler and one of

00:34:54
the UAE. So they, they do some of that sort of the sharing site.

00:34:59
And actually they're all with the exception of one, they're all

00:35:02
diving instructors. So they give me ideas of where this could fit

00:35:07
in. So there is a, uh, a multi-pronged approach. One is to

00:35:12
go in and try and simplify it at the, um, probably the, the rescue

00:35:19
diver dive master level, um, to try and get some interest there,

00:35:24
to get some interest at the, in the se tech, curious, those

00:35:29
people are sitting there going right, what what's tech diving

00:35:31
about. Um, and so we're talking about kit and depth and insight,

00:35:36
actually, a lot of it's about in your head, uh, and, and how to

00:35:39
make more effective decisions and how to recognize that you're

00:35:43
going to expose yourself to greater risk and an understanding

00:35:47
and practicing the stuff that's in the book helps mitigate and

00:35:51
control some of those. And then the other bit is going in at the

00:35:55
sort of experienced instructors. Again, we go back to the

00:36:00
influencer term to get them to start even just using the

00:36:05
language. Once we start changing words, we can change worlds. And

00:36:10
that's not my quote. That's somebody else's, I forgot it's

00:36:13
shrunk, but is you, you change the language. Um, and people will

00:36:18
start changing their own behaviors accordingly. Um, and

00:36:23
I've seen that probably over the last two or three years, and

00:36:27
being in bigger Facebook groups where there's this concept of

00:36:33
local rationality, how does it make sense for people to do what

00:36:37
they did? And now I see other people posting those same bits or

00:36:42
they'll tag me in, Oh, it's great. You know, um, and I'll add

00:36:46
a little bit of extra, but the fact that people are now able to

00:36:51
gonna say, fight those battles, using stuff that I've given is

00:36:56
incredibly rewarding and it will, it will start cascading out, but

00:37:00
it's, it's a huge journey to, to go on. Um, and I I'm, I'm, I'm up

00:37:07
for it

00:37:07
Matt: And it, well, it's, it's not gonna stop growing, is it, I

00:37:10
mean, you're, you've, you've mentioned you've got five, um,

00:37:13
instructors. Oh yeah. Give him a shout out.

00:37:20
Gareth: So there's the five instructors I've got at the

00:37:22
moment and there's four in training and waiting for them to

00:37:25
sign off. So the five instructors, Guy Shockey who's in

00:37:28
Vancouver, there's Helen Pellerin . Who's in Quebec, there's Bart

00:37:32
Den Ouden, who's in the Netherlands. And then Jenny Lord

00:37:36
in Dahab and Daryl Owen is in the UAE. And I got four others who,

00:37:41
and that's Meredith Tanguay who's in Florida. Uh, Chris Tomlin, a

00:37:45
UK, uh, Beatrice Rivara in Italy and Mike Mason, who's up in

00:37:51
Newcastle. So two weeks ago we were supposed to be running the

00:37:54
certifying workshops, but obviously COVID has knocked that

00:37:59
on the head. So I'm hoping as soon as we can start traveling, I

00:38:03
can get to, uh, to certify them. And then there'll be four more

00:38:06
instructors able to, to deliver the materials. Okay.

00:38:09
Matt: So we're going to have nine , nine global instructors. That's

00:38:12
it, that's a hefty run from when was the book released 2019, was

00:38:17
it? And then we've had a year if we can exclude last year because

00:38:22
we didn't do anything.

00:38:23
Gareth: Well, interestingly, didn't do anything face to face.

00:38:27
But to me COVID actually was a bit of a, a blessing in disguise

00:38:32
because people were in stuck at home going[inaudible] and I'd

00:38:36
already started in 2000 tail end of 2019, delivering a webinar

00:38:42
based 10 week program. Um, and since then I've delivered six of

00:38:48
those. So there's about 200 people, um, have gone through

00:38:55
some training, um, since, you know, since the, by the online

00:38:59
webinar basis. Um, so, and they then speak and, uh, I'll give a

00:39:04
shout out to Mateas, uh, who's down in Victoria. Um, he's

00:39:10
changed the, the culture of his club having come on a course with

00:39:13
me last year and gone, ah, this is blow my mind. I can't stop

00:39:18
thinking about it. I'm going to take this stuff. And they got rid

00:39:23
of the wooden weight belt award within their club, which was

00:39:27
about the biggest or most embarrassing screw up. Somebody

00:39:30
had done the previous year. And he said, let, just really

00:39:33
demeaning. This is, you know, yes, it's funny, but nobody's

00:39:37
really happy to receive this. So he stopped that and I said, well

00:39:42
, you could still turn it around. You could still issue a prize,

00:39:45
but do it for the biggest learning experience of the year

00:39:49
when it comes to diving. Um, and now you've, you've recognized the

00:39:54
learning that's happening in the club. So really proud of

00:40:00
[inaudible]

00:40:01
Matt: Victoria as in Australia. Yeah,

00:40:03
Gareth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In Melbourne

00:40:06
Matt: I'll come and have a dive. I've not dived Melbourne yet. And

00:40:08
I keep itching to do it every time I go there. It's just not

00:40:10
long enough to be there. Yeah. Itching, my tests. I'll come

00:40:13
diving with you and I don't want the wooden belt.

00:40:20
Gareth: Well, then you can have the best learning experience that

00:40:22
would go positive thing. Yeah.

00:40:24
Matt: Yeah. Um, well, as soon as we're talking about Australia and

00:40:30
you're obviously in the UK and we've mentioned Canada America on

00:40:32
the kind of thing. Um, one thing I've noticed with, with work in a

00:40:35
dive in, in various locations around the world now is that when

00:40:40
you go to particular countries, they have a different kind of

00:40:44
take on how you should be diving now, by that, I mean, um,

00:40:50
Thailand, some people will moan about it, say it's bit blahzay.

00:40:55
Well, it's not, um, those places that are, uh, very dense

00:41:00
population of people going through basic training, the

00:41:04
courses tend to be run quite tight because they've got to be

00:41:08
up to standard with everyone else who's producing. Um, conversely

00:41:13
you come to Australia and, um, I was, he's a pretty laid back and,

00:41:18
you know, take everything in stride. Um, and I find it quite

00:41:22
shocking to see how many people go solo dive in just off the

00:41:26
shoreline air, um, with no redundant as supplies. And it

00:41:31
just seems to be the norm. I find that quite frightening, but I

00:41:38
think there's gotta be a place there for, I think we mentioned

00:41:41
it, the what'd you call it the other day called culture or

00:41:43
cultural differences, cultural awareness yet, have you, have you

00:41:47
experienced much of that so far going through the training and

00:41:49
the, the guys that you've been doing these courses with?

00:41:53
Gareth: Not necessarily because there are self-selecting audience

00:42:00
that, that comes on the, the training programs anyway, so that

00:42:04
then they're the early adopters. So the people who see that, the

00:42:07
benefit of self-development, um, what I have seen is, um, a little

00:42:17
bit about, I haven't done much out in the, in, you know, I've

00:42:21
done some training in New Zealand and Australia, I've done one

00:42:24
session in Bali, but they were all sort of ex-pats that are,

00:42:28
were in Bali. So they weren't really indicative of the culture

00:42:33
that's there. Um, in, in Europe, there are certainly different, um

00:42:39
, behaviors between sort of countries. Um, so it's certainly

00:42:46
an area that needs to be looked at in terms of incidents, but I

00:42:50
don't think I haven't really encountered it myself. Now, what

00:42:54
I did find interesting were your comment about Thailand. So here's

00:42:57
a cognitive bias straight away is that my, my perception of

00:43:02
learning to dive out in Thailand is not great because it's about

00:43:07
getting people through the door as quickly as possible. And the

00:43:10
driving factor is more about money than quality because of the

00:43:16
clientele that you're likely to be training in the day. They want

00:43:20
a bucket ticket, you know, bucket list ticket that says done

00:43:23
diving, move on. Yeah, yeah. And the, you know, the, the w I don't

00:43:32
know whether or not your use of the word tight meant tight as

00:43:35
they enter the high quality and they were having to compete, or

00:43:38
whether or not they were tight because they were running back to

00:43:40
back courses. And so they couldn't, um, th there's no flex

00:43:45
for somebody who's not quite good enough to have some extra dives,

00:43:50
but I find sign off and off you go. Um, so yeah, there is a huge

00:43:56
amount that that needs to be taken into account in culture. So

00:43:59
go back to your book, rumble, rumble, rumble, go back to your

00:44:01
point that solar dive in Australia, look at the system and

00:44:05
, and the, how the, the local culture will change risk

00:44:10
perceptions, and what can be done to do that. So if you know that

00:44:17
something is lacking in an output where you need to change what the

00:44:23
input is. So it's that the instructors, if they're not happy

00:44:27
about people solo diving, because that's the norm. Well, actually

00:44:31
there needs to be more emphasis on teamwork and shared mental

00:44:35
models and not relying, but working together as a team during

00:44:40
the training program, because if it's not emphasized, then most

00:44:44
courses are individuals who come together as a group learn, and

00:44:49
they go off, they don't interact and operate together as a team,

00:44:53
and you can do that to recreation level. It just requires the

00:44:56
instructor to up their game and up their knowledge and their

00:44:59
skills to be able to teach that. So, um, and you know, the fact

00:45:05
that they don't take redundant air supplies with them. Well, if

00:45:08
that's not something that's been emphasized or taught or brought

00:45:12
up in training, don't be surprised that people don't do it

00:45:16
outside of the training because you know, and their argument,

00:45:20
well, they should know about these risks. They can learn from

00:45:23
others. Well, then we get into the social conformance piece.

00:45:26
Well, everybody else is diving without redundant air. Why do I

00:45:31
need to, because they're not all dropping like flies, therefore it

00:45:35
must be safe. So these are all bits of the human factors, jigsaw

00:45:40
, jigsaw puzzle that needs to be taken into account. Oh, it's huge

00:45:47
. It's huge. And I think this is, you know, the human factors is,

00:45:52
is general and approach and specific in application. And by

00:45:56
that, I mean, cognitive biases, social interactions, the way we

00:46:00
make decisions, Lehman make communications. There's a huge

00:46:04
body of research that explains how this works, but how to create

00:46:08
change at an individual level or a team level or a dive center

00:46:12
level has to be specific. So I I'm much better at answering

00:46:18
specific problem type questions than writing something generic

00:46:23
because you write something generic people go that doesn't

00:46:26
apply to me. That doesn't apply to me. That's another bias that

00:46:29
we have, you know, that they're different to me. So it doesn't

00:46:33
apply to me well, hanging on it. Why is it any different? But I

00:46:37
have got examples of being in Southeast Asia where authority,

00:46:43
or, or the social culture, which is normally termed as a sort of

00:46:46
authority gradient where a junior diver or an experienced diver

00:46:50
won't question, a more senior person. Yeah. But it's not as

00:46:54
simple as just this seniority piece. It's about respect. And we

00:47:01
are a family that actually we're going to, we wouldn't question

00:47:06
our fathers or uncles, or, you know, the patriarch set up

00:47:11
because they might give me something later on. And so you

00:47:16
get to be in situations. And I know instructors who operate out

00:47:19
there where they will, um, fail something on the leader, the team

00:47:24
leader, the dive is going on and the rest of the team, or they

00:47:27
will get the leader to make a mistake. And the rest of the team

00:47:30
will just sit there and not question or challenge what's

00:47:33
going on. And so there's, there's a huge learning that's needed for

00:47:37
the instructors to understand these behaviors and come up with

00:47:42
strategies to inform their students that says, look, once

00:47:46
you're out of the, the cover and the protection of an

00:47:50
instructional setting, you're out on your own. And that means that

00:47:55
you have to be aware of these. And if things do go wrong, you

00:47:58
have to say something before it becomes catastrophic. So it's,

00:48:03
yeah, it's a, it's a huge jigsaw puzzle.

00:48:06
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, how much that man, I'm sitting here

00:48:08
listening to you and just thinking back over what we've

00:48:11
discussed over the last, however long, and it's an awkward topic.

00:48:16
I mean, we've got to say it is an awkward topic to talk about. And

00:48:19
especially, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm not forwarding, I'm not shy in

00:48:23
coming forward and speaking what I want to speak. Um, but I found

00:48:28
myself second, you know, thinking twice thinking before I speak,

00:48:33
which is not usually me. Um, so I think I can now understand a

00:48:39
little bit more why it takes 10 weeks of webinars to get this

00:48:43
training across because you've got some, some massive voids to

00:48:47
cross. And so a lot of barriers to break down for this to be a

00:48:52
success.

00:48:54
Gareth: Oh, totally. And, you know, I look at where aviation,

00:48:58
you know, started in the eighties because they were blaming pilots

00:49:02
for pilot error, sticking the aircraft in the ground because

00:49:05
they were not paying attention or miscommunicating and ropes wrong

00:49:10
selections, but ultimately boiled down to pilot error. And it

00:49:13
wasn't until they started looking at the cockpit voice reporters

00:49:16
and the flight data recorders. And they said, well, hang on a

00:49:19
minute. They, they, there was an awareness of what was going on,

00:49:22
but they were unable to share that picture amongst the rest of

00:49:26
the crew. And when they did, it was potentially too late. And

00:49:29
then they start looking at, well, hang on with it. The errors

00:49:32
didn't just happen in the cockpit. They would have been

00:49:36
developed from the aircraft design or air traffic controls,

00:49:39
design, or airport design, and start looking further back up. So

00:49:43
you start taking a systems view about what's going on. So even

00:49:47
though aviation has been doing this for 40 plus years, 50 years

00:49:51
or so, they still have issues and they still have, you know,

00:49:56
aircraft crashes, they still have miscommunication issues, all of

00:50:00
those things. And that's an incredibly regulated industry.

00:50:04
Healthcare has been doing it for probably about 15 years and they

00:50:08
really struggle, um, because of the dynamic environment, the

00:50:12
pressures and the social cultural issues that exist in, in a

00:50:15
healthcare environment. Um, and in the UK, they're starting to

00:50:19
bring some formal structure to human factors into the clinical

00:50:24
environment based on work by a guy called Martin Bromley. Um,

00:50:30
who's formed the clinical human factors group as a way of trying

00:50:33
to get that. And there's now governmental support to, to what

00:50:35
they're doing and, and the colleges that surgeons needs,

00:50:38
tests, dentists, whatever. And now starting to put stuff

00:50:41
together, um, in the diving industry, it's, it's me and

00:50:46
abandon followers who are going, this is a good idea. We need to

00:50:49
do it. Um, and, and I get the resistance there. Aren't dead

00:50:53
bodies lying up. Therefore it must be okay.

00:50:57
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I didn't say right. I suppose I didn't

00:51:01
right at the start of this bloody episode, to be honest, Eva,

00:51:05
you're 25 years in the air force. You're actually a navigator,

00:51:08
wouldn't you? Yeah.

00:51:10
Gareth: Yeah. Hercules navigator in a multi-crew environment and

00:51:13
then went on and did a master's in aerospace systems, which is

00:51:17
where my knowledge of human factors and sort of the deeper

00:51:21
knowledge. And that's when I sort of started digging deeper and

00:51:24
then went into flight trials, um, with Airbus. So picked up some

00:51:29
human factors stuff there, then worked in research and

00:51:32
development and then worked in procurement and systems

00:51:34
engineering. So very broad view of the world. And it was during

00:51:39
the, the latter sort of five years of my time in the air

00:51:41
force. That's not in PhD. Um, so yeah, huge breadth.

00:51:48
Matt: I'll just get a psych, a anyone, any of the divers that

00:51:50
are out there. Thank you. I'm not gonna listen to this fellow. He's

00:51:52
not even, he's not even a professional. He's not even an

00:51:53
instructor. Well, I think you kind of top it for, um, you know,

00:51:57
having experienced in a structured, uh, work environment

00:52:01
and how teamwork comes together.

00:52:04
Gareth: Yeah. And so, yeah, and from the diving side of the

00:52:09
majority of my training has gone through gue. Um, so I did

00:52:14
fundamentals in 2006. Uh, we're only had about 40 dives to my

00:52:21
name. So I was, I was really lucky that I didn't have to

00:52:24
unlearn a bunch of stuff. Um, and then since then, um, I've

00:52:29
probably got about 800 dives, uh , certified at the highest levels

00:52:33
to, you know, my highest levels of GV take two, which is, uh, an

00:52:37
advanced tronics course and, uh, JJ rebreather, which I'm going to

00:52:43
get recertified on the end of may , um, to get back up to speed on

00:52:48
that. So, but I know there was a question about rebreathers.

00:52:52
Matt: Yeah. That was, um, uh, Lisa, Lisa, Marie. Yeah. Um, what

00:52:58
are your thoughts on rebreathers then? That was a, that's a whole

00:53:01
new,

00:53:04
Gareth: My view on rebreathers. Um, are they safe? Are they

00:53:08
unsafe? Uh, a piece of equipment is not unsafe in of itself. And

00:53:15
it's a simple example is a hairdryer could be safe. It's not

00:53:20
particularly safe. You sit in a bath and put the hairdryer in the

00:53:23
water with you. Um, and, and so it's this need to look at a

00:53:28
system again. So rebreathers have been designed to the level that

00:53:35
the, um, the market will support. And by that, I mean, is it costs

00:53:42
manufacturers money to design builds, certify, and they've got

00:53:46
to recoup that money. And then they've got to make a profit.

00:53:49
Otherwise they're not a valid, sustainable business. So the

00:53:54
diving community won't pay much more than they pay or ready, um,

00:54:01
for, for what's there. So in terms of maturity and equipment

00:54:05
set, it's probably, you know, there are little nuances, but

00:54:08
it's probably about as mature as it's going to get. Then we look

00:54:13
at the other pieces of the system and that's the training agencies,

00:54:16
the instructors and the divers themselves, um, and how they all

00:54:22
come together is how to create a safe diving, converter, calm, a

00:54:26
safe diving operation on a rebreather and recognize that

00:54:32
it's working together that creates safety, not a reboot.

00:54:38
Rebreather is unsafe. The difficulty is that there is,

00:54:42
again, there is no formal training that goes into agency

00:54:45
training materials that talk about human fallibility and

00:54:49
cognitive biases, and why checklists are designed the way

00:54:53
they are. They could probably be improved, um, to make them, you

00:54:57
know, to have less friction, um, to be in a situation that you

00:55:02
operate as a team. And if one of the team isn't using a checklist

00:55:09
that you've created the environment that actually, if I'm

00:55:11
not using a checklist, I expect you to call me out. And if you

00:55:15
are not using one, I'm going to call you out. And there is no,

00:55:19
there's nothing wrong with that, but it's, it's, it's not easy

00:55:24
because those, those soft bits are not easy to measure. Um, it's

00:55:30
much easier to measure simple compliance when you're delivering

00:55:33
a course, but that doesn't necessarily help you, um, develop

00:55:38
competencies and attitudes. And the, the final piece then is the

00:55:43
expectation that if you haven't read, reached a standard, then

00:55:47
you don't get a certification. Now I know some agencies put that

00:55:52
in the hands of the instructor that says, are they, have, they

00:55:56
got the right attitude to dive this equipment? If not, then you

00:55:59
can refuse certification. That has to be explained really

00:56:04
clearly before the course starts, because otherwise you're going to

00:56:08
end up with a whole world of hurt that says, hang in there. I

00:56:11
matched all the skills and it's just your opinion that I'm not

00:56:15
safe. And so, you know, you end up with conflict there. Yeah. So

00:56:20
to answer the question, Lisa, my view is they are a valid too, and

00:56:24
they're potentially safer than open circuit at certain depths.

00:56:29
Um, how have you also need to train in shallower debts to be

00:56:32
able to go to the deeper depths, to, to be competent when things

00:56:36
go wrong and you also need to have the attitude that says this

00:56:40
thing can fail. I need to know what it's doing all the time, and

00:56:44
I can resolve those failures. And that means I need to go and

00:56:47
practice them. And there's nothing wrong with doing drills

00:56:51
in a quarry in the shallows to make sure that you're competent

00:56:55
to deal with almost no notice failures, because those failures,

00:57:00
if we knew they were going to come, we'd do something about

00:57:03
them.

00:57:04
Matt: For sure. I mean, it's gotta be second nature. And the

00:57:06
only way you're gonna be able to do that is through training.

00:57:10
Gareth: Yeah. W with effective feedback. Yeah.

00:57:12
Matt: Yeah. Happy days we've been going on for quite some time now.

00:57:18
So it must be time for your breakfast and time for me to have

00:57:21
a beer. So it's been an absolute pleasure mate. How can people

00:57:24
just get in touch with, with you and where can they find you

00:57:27
online? We'll put them in the show notes as well, but give them

00:57:29
a call.

00:57:29
Gareth: Yeah. So the easiest way is the human diver.com. Um, and,

00:57:35
uh, that there's a contact page there that, that sends out a form

00:57:38
through to me. Um, so that that's the easiest bit. There's a

00:57:42
Facebook page as well, or a Facebook group rather we've got

00:57:46
about six and a half thousand people in which if you just, uh,

00:57:49
searching Facebook for human factors in diving, then you will

00:57:53
, uh, you'll find that. And I'd really recommend anybody who

00:57:58
wants to learn more about human factors in a, in a 30 minute

00:58:04
documentary is to go onto the human diver website, go to the

00:58:08
top and look at if only click the link there and watch a

00:58:12
documentary, which will bring a tear to some people's eyes,

00:58:17
because it deals with a fatality. And it deals with raw emotion

00:58:20
that the dive team that lost a member. And it's told the story

00:58:25
is told through a lens of human factors and adjust culture, which

00:58:28
is about understanding how it made sense for somebody to do

00:58:32
what they did. There are also some additional notes. So if

00:58:35
you're inclined to take this further, there is a guide that

00:58:39
explains the event in more details and also teaches you how

00:58:42
to run a workshop on how to learn more about, or learn from, um,

00:58:50
the, uh, the documentary, if only, and you can get the book

00:58:53
from that from the website as well, or from Amazon.

00:58:56
Matt: Well, we'll put it all in the show notes. If you want to,

00:58:58
if you want to put a link to this on your website, feel free and

00:59:01
people can listen to it. I haven't already, and I'll put a

00:59:03
few links in for that. Um, if only DACA. Yeah. I'll put that

00:59:07
into the show notes as well. So they've got direct link to you

00:59:09
there. Um, Gareth has been awesome. Um, let's do it again,

00:59:14
some point, especially with all these new instructors that are

00:59:16
coming through, we can put something together and, yeah.

00:59:21
Gareth: Excellent. Thanks very much, Matt, and, uh, have fun to

00:59:23
everybody. Thanks so much. Thanks very much.

00:59:26
Matt: Uh, goodbye. Everybody podcast for the inquisitive diver

00:59:32
.