Introduction:

Over the past five years there has been 16 liveaboard dive vessels that have caught fire or sunk claiming lives and raising urgent questions about safety at sea what standards exist? How are they enforced and what are the barriers to a globally recognized standard for this ever-growing industry?

This is the start of a series of episodes focused on liveaboard safety currently there are no specific global regulations for liveaboard vessels and dare say that this is unlikely to change for many reasons vessel location flag state or ownership vessel modification loopholes leading to dodgy builds the materials used in such builds poor regulation and even unscrupulous operators and greed let alone the politics of creating such a body when booking a vacation we provide a level of trust to the operator and that trust is accompanied by assumption an assumption that has to be in place to allow us to make a booking confidently however just because an operation states it has a safety structure in place doesn't necessarily mean it is considering that we will not be seeing any global plan anytime soon we need to be able to recognize and separate the unscrupulous operators from those who do their utmost to achieve a safety standard that not only complies with local regulations but in many cases exceeds them those who set their own standards learn from failings and incidences and improve their system to benefit all on boardrecognize that incidents may become more frequent with the increasing vessels on the market more scuba diving vacationers and the advancement in tech creating further hazards on a vessel recognize that the blame doesn't necessarily rest on the shoulders just the operators everybody in the system must take ownership of their contribution to the failings that includes customers forcing a race to the bottom pricing market enticing corner cutting by dodgy operators booking agents filling sales pages with alluring green ticks on the say so of the operator who's filling in that advertisement just to get on their website we can pool our resources gather the relevant information from owners operators crews directors listen to personal experiences and subject matter experts by collaborating and pooling this knowledge we can expand the knowledge base for Wouldbe Travelers seeking their next adventure now I plan to leverage the reach of my podcast to maintain focus on liveaboard safety and find out as much as we can to assist all involved in our amazing sport with the added bonus that we may just save a life or two whilst we're at it in this episode of the Scuba Goat Podcast I sit down with marine engineer and AMSA accredited surveyor mick Uberti founder of MSA and MSI with experience spanning super yachts government regulation and hands-on vessel surveys including some of Egypt's dive liveaboards Mick has seen the best and worst of commercial marine safety we dive into the need for a globally recognized liveaboard safety standard the risks divers unknowingly take and what can be done to make these trips safer for everyone now this is just the beginning of a multi episode deep dive into liveaboard safety culminating in a round table discussion that every scuba traveller needs to hear if you feel you have something to bring to the discussion comment below or message me directly and let's make change together

Mick Uberti: Uh, his name just escapes me right now, but, um, yeah, he, he had rang me, um, a a couple of times and, uh, and anyway, we did it. But no, he, he came across very, very professional in what he did.

But like I said, it's just the, the way the media there operate, isn't it? It's like they're trying to take something that like you are gonna try and do and, and dive deep and what you've already been doing, rather than just try and make form an opinion based on a, on a five or ten second snippet that you see on the evening news that, that that's the way our society's gone now, hasn't it?

Matt Waters: It has, everyone's got the attention span of a gnat, um, which is, you know, it's, it's, it's a nightmare on most levels. But when you start talking engineering and like, I'm a geek. I, I did 17 years as a gas turbines engineer in the Air Force, so Oh yeah. I go down the rabbit hole and you can just see them phase out.

They're just gone five seconds done, swipe left.

Mick Uberti: I mean you say that, but then long form podcasting right now, you know, the, the Joe Rogans and these types, I mean, that, these are the three hour long things and people seem to stay engaged for, for a long time. So I think, I think there's still a bunch of people out there that are really happy to be engaged and listen and learn and then form their own opinion based on a lot of information, you know?

Matt Waters: Yeah. Oh mate, I mean, long form podcast, I think it's, it's a fabulous setup. I mean, we've got the Aex show next week in Sydney for two days, and I'm doing 10 minute recordings, 10 minute interviews. But, um, in general. Most of my recordings are around about the hour and a half to two hours, 10 minutes. Uh, and it's, it's the freedom to be able to speak and, and, and get a point across without it being from a text or a script.

And you're listening to people that like yourself, that, you know, you've got the knowledge from inside the topic that we wanna discuss and highlight. And the amount of people that, that listen to the podcast and say, especially here in Oz, it's uh, you know, as soon as they set off on a road trip, here we go.

We've got another episode or two that we can listen to or smashing down the road, you know? Great. Um, it's, um, it's fabulous. And I find there's also, uh, quite a lot of listeners that tend to commute, um, especially in, in the cities like, like here. And, um, you can sit on the bus and you can see, you know, people swiping all the time on their social medias, but they've all got headphones on, so they're all listening to something.

And if you can bring, uh. A, a topic of importance to the, the logos and they, they can digest it while doing other stuff, then it's, it's fabulous. And I would, I would suggest that the, the numbers, the download numbers that we've got for the show coming through, that it's, you know, it's gaining momentum month by month.

That's

Mix: especially seeing as it's

Matt Waters: so niche as well. Yeah. You know, it's such a small sport, but Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, you know, I, I think podcasting's the, the good way to get information across and, and, and try and circumnavigate this, this five second attention span that everyone seems to have with social media.

Agreed. I don't get, I don't, I don't get on well with social media, you know, I've gotta do stuff for the show and, and for my diving company. But, um, I know that I'm gonna, I can put in an hour's work to do a 32nd reel and it's, it's there for five, 10 minutes and then, you know, people have moved on to the next thing.

So it's, it's a lot of work for not a lot of game. Matt, what's your diving company? Oh, um, nomadic scuba. Okay. Cool. And it's, um, and, and what's your spiel? Um, well it's a, it, it's a travel company. So I've been, I'd started it in 2017 and, um, it, it felt, it came out of the, um, there was a constant cycle of people, old customers and guests that would contact me and say, Hey Matt, who do you know anyone in such and such a location?

Because we'd love to go dive in there. And it was just a natural progression from, from instructing and, and managing, uh, dive operations into assisting people with bookings. So, you know, we've not gone at massive acceleration. We just took our time to, to get it where it is now. And the, the website only went live about three and a half months ago.

Um, 'cause we got caught up in Covid and, you know, we, we paid a lot of money to our website designer that it then became a bit obsolete after two years of not being able to travel. So, um, the new ones up and running and, um. I assist people booking their vacations and also lead expeditions as well, focusing on the Australian market, or you take bookings from anywhere in the world.

It's, it's definitely global. Yeah. Yeah. I've got, um, I would say I'd say 40%, 45% of market is Australia and then the rest is, uh, America, Canada, predominantly even down into like Romania. I've got a few guests there as well. Yeah.

Mick Uberti: Uh,

Matt Waters: uh, what side of the river tha were you from there? Um, so I was born up, um, in Lancashire, so Okay.

Several miles north of Liverpool.

Mix: Yeah.

Mick Uberti: You know, the uk Well, uh, I did all my, uh, engineering study over there when I, uh, went to see, oh, down at, uh, south, south Hampton. And, uh, yeah, spent about probably eight years, um, in Europe while working on boats. Um, oh yeah. Um, predominantly made based in France, maybe France and Italy, but, uh, yeah, yeah, A fair bit of time in the UK as well.

Matt Waters: Okay. Yeah, Southampton's quite a, um, quite a military town, isn't it? I think the Marines are down there, aren't they?

Mick Uberti: Yeah. Well, I I think there's also the naval base is like Portsmouth as well, um, further down. Oh yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, but I, I was in the, at Atch Maritime College. Uh, there's that near in Theorem, so the small town there.

Mm.

Matt Waters: It, it's a nice place. How did you pick, how did you pick the UK to do your education? Good enough here.

Mick Uberti: No, I, um, I, I went to, well I was originally a mechanic here in Australia, like did an apprenticeship as a mechanic and then I had an opportunity to go work at sea. And, um, and then all the schooling, um, uh, the, the courses, uh, for marine engineering were for the company that I started working for were based in, in the uk.

So yeah. And then I went onto a, and when I moved off those boats, I went on to like soupy yachts and I was working like two months on and off, and so I would go mm-hmm. Go there and complete more studies on, you know, more, more yachting based, uh, engineering courses and that sort of stuff. Yeah. Oh,

Matt Waters: okay. So super yachts were like the, the private boats and

Mick Uberti: Yeah, well, first money com commercial and then I went onto like the, the super yachts.

Yeah. So, um, uh, started on like a, uh, like a a 40, 40 meter, um, hesen, which is like a, a Dutch soup yacht. Um, and that was based in, in the Middle East in Dubai, working for the royal family there. And then. Spent like a couple of years with them and then, um, went on to other, other big boats, like a a 60 meter, um, German built boat.

Um, that was a, another super yacht that was mostly based in the Americas and back and forth to Europe. Um, uh, what else? And even did a, a short stint on, um, uh, working on a boat called the Nico Be, which is, I think it's still owned by Richard Branson. Um, so it did like a main crossing on there. So yeah, I did my fair bit of time at sea.

Um, uh, I think about, uh, 11 or I've tried to count 'em, I think it's 11 or 12 Atlantic crossings. And then, um, and then, um, gone from like, uh, Dubai to France a few times with that, with the Royal family doing, doing those transits as well. Yeah. Um, didn't really enjoy the whole soupy yacht scene, but, uh, more enjoyed the, um.

The, the shipyard times, which probably says more about me and then, and that, and that's how, how, that's how I moved into marine surveying. Like I, um, decided it was time to move back to Australia and, uh, um, yeah, got a job with the Marine Board in Victoria and I was there for like nearly eight years, or eight and a half years.

And then I started MSA. Um, and yeah, we, we, we've grown. Um, so there's myself and three other directors and we have uh, uh, 13, 14 employees here. And then we've got a couple, um, then we formed Maritime Survey International because of all the work we're doing abroad. And, uh, we have a, a large project we're doing in, um, in, uh, Spain, uh, of a new build.

We're project managing that. And, uh, yeah, so a couple more guys over there. And, and that's the company we've been using for the Egyptian liveaboard inspections as well. So I guess that, that was a long-winded way to go

Matt Waters: to how we getting there. No, that's a very nice, nice lead in, mate. I, it's almost like you scripted it.

I I didn't script that bit. I know you're a natural, you need to do podcasting. Not, not quite, not quite.

Mick Uberti: How long have you been doing this podcasting

Matt Waters: stuff for? Oh, um, we started this, I say we, um, I, I started this on the kitchen table, uh, when Covid hit actually

Mix: Oh, wow.

Matt Waters: When Covid started the lockdowns. And the intention was to just main maintain contact with my network in the industry and, and hopefully kill a bit of boredom, but also hopefully pr continue to promote their operations for as and when lockdown.

Um, disappears and, and try and get customers to their door. Um, and it very quickly grew into, you know, anything that, that caught my eye that, that, that I thought was an interesting topic. So we ended up with conservation efforts and, you know, scientists on the show talking about corals and their expansion coming from the tropics coming down into the cooler waters.

So no, no, no topic is off the table unless it's, uh, well outside the boundaries of our blue world. And I suppose this is, this is why I've touched base with you as well for, um, the, the issues that we're seeing constantly in, in Egypt and the, and the liveaboard issues. And, um, here we are now. Yeah. Okay, cool.

So in fact, my, I'll tell you, I, um, I did, I think it was about seven episodes deep and I got an email through. Professing to be from Sylvia Earl's office. And, um, if, if you don't know Sylvia Earl, she's effectively the female version of Sir David Attenborough over in America. Okay. And, uh, she, she's the, the lady, the, her royal deepness that's just done everything, everything and anything she can do for conservation and a bit of a hero of mine.

And I got this email and it, and it, and it's requesting, you know, to get Sylvia ll on the show. And I'm like, ah, this is a spam. This is someone in middle of nowhere in Africa or something, trying to get some money outta me. So I had to do a little bit of research on who was sending the email, and I was like, holy shit, this is real.

Yeah. And, um, lo and behold, I ended up having Sylvia on the show and, uh, I expected her to be on for 40, 45 minutes and then onto the next job, you know, but, um, no, she, she stayed on and we chatted for a. A good couple of hours.

Mix: Oh, good on

Matt Waters: you. Well done. Yeah. Yeah. And good on her as well to give up her time for Yeah, some random bloke down in Oz.

Very cool. I'll have to listen to that one then. Yeah, yeah,

Mick Uberti: yeah. No, she's a good one.

Matt Waters: I

Mix: have to confess, I'm not a,

Mick Uberti: I'm not a big, I'm not, I'm not big into diving. I have to confess that, you know, the most diving I've done is like around the, uh, cleaning holes of boats. So, uh, um, that's, uh, I've, I've, you know, I've been to some nice dive locations in the world and had fun there, but I, I'm, you know, I have a paddy dive certificate, and, and that's about as far as it goes.

I wouldn't call myself, uh, by any stretch of the imagination. Any sort of experienced data. Yeah,

Matt Waters: yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, you are, you are intrinsically linked into the diving world just because of what you're doing right now. I guess so, yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, um, and again, this is, like I say, it's, it's a good example of not particularly.

A diving, uh, topic, but it's related to, and, um, you know, what we were saying earlier on about, uh, the general media and how quickly it flashes by and disappears and onto the next story. So, um, hence I think it was a, a good idea for us to us to have a chat. Um, because my main goal out of this is to get a better understanding from, you know, a professional, um, a professional eye on what we should be looking for on liveaboards, um, what, um, guests should be expecting to see when they get on a boat.

And you know how to listen to that little voice in the back of their head that says, hold on a moment, something's not quite right. And having the, the, the confidence to get off the boat. Um, and it's a big concern. Um. For all of us. Uh, but it, it, it, it's not only damaging or, or risking those people that are getting on the boat, but it's also damaging those operators and those operations that are out there that do their utmost to make everything as safe as possible.

And I say as safe as possible because we are effectively put in, you know, a, a a, a bait bean tin on top of water, full of electrical stuff and gas, and god knows what else. So it's, it's a risky business, but we've gotta some way maintain this topic of conversation and keep it on point and in the limelight so that it doesn't disappear.

And the, um, the low grade operations out there continue to put people's lives at risk. Agreed with all.

Mick Uberti: Uh, passengers in general, they have a reasonable expectation that a vessel that applies for a higher reward is, is fit for purpose. Like when they arrive there, they just have an expectation that, hey, these guys are a commercial operator, that, you know, I should be safe. No different to when you and I go and jump on an air airplane.

We just, there's an expectation we're gonna be safe. Unfortunately, with a lot of these dive liveaboards, especially in the case of Egypt, um, they apply their trade relatively unregulated. Um, even though they have the certification in place from the Egyptian Maritime Authority, uh, this, this is an annual certificate of registration that they actually complete an inspection and then jump on board.

So it it, it's tough for the passenger. Um, and they have to dig a little bit deeper if, if they wanna ensure their safety. And I actually think that while you know, you can. Talk about government regulation increasing, um, education and training for these operators, uh, have an enforcement mechanism and all that sort of stuff.

And the more and more I've learned about, um, e Egypt and a lot of the other world that has these types of vessels, uh, operating, you know, for dive liveaboards, uh, understand that, that they are not kitted up. They do not have the regulatory authority or nor the funding to treat this in the same manner that we would in, like you mentioned, Australia or the uk, um, or you know, most of the west.

So I think if we just encourage public accountability so that when the passenger and charter clients, when they book onboard the vessels, start inquiring about safety, ask is the vessel certified? When was it last inspected? Um. Start putting pressure on the operator to pri prioritize on safety. Um, and even when they're getting on board, because like in the case of Egypt, you know, they will show you a valid certificate.

Um, and they'll even show you the shiny, you know, um, they've got a little logo that keeps 'em safe and all these travel stars and all that sort of stuff. Um, but it doesn't really mean a lot. Um, so yeah, maybe they have to take that next step. And when you're walking Path Life rafts, have a look at the dates on them, you know, ask 'em about the fire extinguishers and the fix firefighting systems.

Um, if you can just have a look at the engine room, you know, just see how clean and tidy it's, uh, gonna, the wheelhouse. Uh, have a look around there, um, just basic things just to see if they have a lot of navigation equipment, if the radios are actually working. Um, little things like that that the layman can, can do, I guess, you know, that.

That's probably where I would, where I would start. Um, but did you want me to talk about what we've done at MSI like to, for this, take it a step further or,

Matt Waters: oh yeah. Let's delve deep, I think. Um, so as mean before, before we do that though. Yeah. I think it's, it's important to point out, um, your authority on this topic of discussion that we're, that we're having.

Sure. So a lot of people will listen to it and think, oh, hold on a minute. Who's this guy talking? Yeah. So where, where, where does your authority come from? Right. So,

Mick Uberti: um, I'm a marine engineer. I am a marine surveyor. So, um, usually the pathway from being a marine surveyor is once you've spent time at sea or as a naval architect, then you can transition into a more specialized role as a marine surveyor.

A marine surveyor's role is. To, um, inspect a vessel, um, and to applied set of standards to determine whether the vessel is fit for purpose or not. Um, we complete condition, uh, reports, valuation reports. We, um, do pre-purchase surveys on higher surveys, off higher surveys, uh, things like that. Um, ultimately, you know, we are looking at the condition of a vessel to, to determine whether it's fit for fit for purpose for that owner or operator to use.

Um, we do work on behalf of. In this case in Australia, we do work on behalf of the Australian government. Um, so amsa, the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, and they accredit us as marine surveyors. Um, so to be an AMSA accredited marine surveyor, you must have had like industry experience, uh, and then also go through their examination process as well.

Um, there's not that many of us in Australia. I think there's around about 50 or 60, um, AMSA accredited marine surveys in Australia. Um, on top of that I have, um, uh, a UK qualification as a, um, seamen auditor that's a controlled marine inspection document auditor. Um, where the focus is more on safety management systems, um, and auditing those on onboard vessels.

Um, so I've, I've spent around about 15 years, uh, as a marine surveyor, um, to date. So that was eight and a half years with a, with a government regulator and now about eight. It's eight years on, uh, April the first, it'll be, um, with our, our own company, our Maritime Survey Australia. Um, oh. We're also, um, uh, appointed flag state inspection inspectors on behalf of Marshall Islands and Cook Islands as well.

So I, I guess that's, uh, our level of authority as a company and, uh, and, and, and what, and me be personally of what I've done.

Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. Good on you. Um, so, um, one other thing I think we need to highlight as well is that I, I mean, it's, it's quite confusing unless you spend time to sit down and, and look through, uh, documents and explanations, all this kind of stuff about, um, flag states and what is recognized as, um, a seaworthy vessel when we're looking at, uh, SOLAS and all that kind of stuff.

Yes. Can you, can you give some sort of explanation that to, to Joe Publix so we can Sure. Get 'em on par? Um.

Mick Uberti: When a, when a vessel is, uh, operating domestically, they don't require a a, a flag state. So in Australia, you're just considered an a, a domestic commercial vessel. Um, and that's the same case all over the world.

Uh, the moment you intend to or, um, take an international voyage, um, then at that point you apply a set of more onerous standards. Um, and they come in the form of a lot of the International Maritime Organization conventions, and they formed SOLAS as a result of the Titanic in 1912. Um, then there's the Marpol Convention as a result of the, um, echo incident in, uh, the uk.

Seventies or eighties. Yeah, quote me on that one. Um, then there's the ISM code, uh, result of the Herald Free Enterprise incident in 1987 in, uh, Brussels to uk. Uh, you probably recall that one. Um, okay. And, uh, then you have which one I forgetting? The ISPS code. That's International Ship Port Security Code.

Um, that was a result of the nine 11. Um, so it's always been a major incident or accident that has brought about change. It's usually what happens, and probably the way we're going with, uh, with this here as well. Um, as to answer your question about flag states. So as just in their very nature, um, ships or vessels are elusive, they need to comply with some sort of set of laws.

So if you're an Australian vessel and you are making an international voyage, then when you are, um. Operating that vessel globally, you are, if your vessel is flagged in Australia, you then must comply with all of the Australian rules and regulations on board that vessel no matter where you are. So that's where you have a lot of flags of convenience or international registries as they're called.

Um, and so if you are flat flagged in, uh, with something like the Marshall Islands or Cayman Islands or Cook Islands or whatever, Liberia, um, there's some of the larger ones globally, then you comply with those laws. Um, some are less onerous than others. Uh, some can be just a complete race to the bottom.

However, most of the flag states though, are signatories to all those IMO conventions that I mentioned. Um, so it's not just a. The reasons for choosing a flag shape, a flag, a different flag state over one or another is not necessarily to avoid, um, avoid rule, a rule set. In some cases it might just be because, uh, there's a lot less, uh, there might be a tax incentive, but it might be a lot less onerous in terms of, uh, compliance with other conventions and codes and things like that.

So, um, yes, they exist. This, they're all out there, and all of the biggest cruise ship companies and so on and so forth use these flags of convenience globally all, all the time.

Matt Waters: Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, and, um, let's now run down the rabbit hole Sure. Of, um, how, um, how you got involved with, with Egypt, how you've been drawn into this, this topic.

Mick Uberti: Sure. So, um, maritime Survey International we're engaged by a client of ours, um, as Saudi Arabia University to go and inspect, um, eight liveaboard vessels in Egypt. The reason for the inspection is they wanted to charter these vessels for up to 12 months for their students, and they had an incident, um, with, uh, with the previous boat that they had chartered, and they weren't comfortable, um, getting one without a prior inspection.

Mm. So good on it. They, yeah, I guess so. So they, they, they wanted to do, do their due diligence, I guess. Um,

Mix: mm.

Mick Uberti: I didn't know much about the. These Egyptian liveaboard boats until I got there and we went, and, um, when I say we just me, I, I went on this trip, but, but I was accompanied by the, uh, by the, it, it was quite interesting.

I had the, the, the director of one of the, um, the marine science laboratories from Saudi. So he came on board, there was a dive guy and then there was a pro procurement guy. So there was four. There was four of us crawling around these boats, and then there was the owner's representative, and then there was the captain.

Now these boats aren't that big and I've got everyone just watching me. Um, a marine survey is not that exciting, right? So I'm, I'm walking around with my iPad and, um, and I'm going through, you know, a checklist. I take images, I record things. Um, you know, it's watching someone do an audit. It, it's, it's, you know, I'm not doing it with a unicycle or juggling balls or anything like that.

You know, it, it's not that exciting. Um, but I have got used to it over the years with, um, doing a pre-purchase survey and, uh, you know. I, I, I get it. You know, someone's about to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on, on a boat and they really wanna see what I'm doing. Um, but generally after 10 minutes they realize this is pretty boring.

And they, uh, go and find the local coffee shop and they just say, oh, call me when you're done, type thing. So, um, yeah, you'd probably be the more inquisitive type, Matt. And you would stay there the whole time and bug me. Yeah. So, oh, I'd be a pain in the ass. Yeah, I really would. So I was, I was fortunate enough on these ones.

They, they went off straight and did their, um, and did their coffees and le left me alone. Um, uh, now I looked at, um, we started in Charmel Sheik. We then went to Alexandria, and then we went to, we saw a new build in Alexandria, and then we went to, um, uh, Herta over the other side. Um, in total. I looked at 14 vessels, but I only completed eight reports as the other ones.

They didn't really warrant more than about a five minute inspection. Um, and then I just realized, okay, look, you're not gonna use this boat. This, this is definitely just not gonna be fit for purpose. And you could, you could make that assumption within five minutes, right? Um, the findings on all the vessels were really similar.

Um, they all pre present interior and cabins and sleeping berths that are really good, like really good condition, like super yacht standard, you know, uh, they're really, really nice because that's the selling point for the charter operator. Um, no one that wants to go on a. Five day liveaboard trip or a week liveaboard trip.

I, I don't think they're walking on board and saying, can I please have a look at the engine room first? Uh, you know, I, I don't think that's a question and nor should it be, right? Like, I mean, let's be real. I mean, they, they wanna make sure that they're gonna be comfortable on board and like I said before, they, that there's just an expectation that they, the vessel are gonna be safe.

Um mm. So the deficiencies in most cases that I found, they're not, many of them were not expensive to repair or replace. And in most cases, compliance with safety and contemporary standards are simply just unknown to the crew. Um, and the operator, they're just not educated in this space. And, you know, our expectations are quite high 'cause the divers probably paying, I don't know, whatever they're paying for a one or two week liveaboard trip.

But, um, I think just bear in mind that the captain on these boats is getting 300 US dollars a month. Um, and the engineers and the rest of the crew are getting a lot, a lot less. The, the fact that they didn't know much was, was interesting. Um, mm. The, so the Egyptian Authority for Maritime Safety, that's EAMS, they're the concerned authority in, um, in Egypt regarding the technical standards, uh, compliance and registration.

Um, so any excursion vessel as they're called in Egypt, um, that's more than 10 tons which go, go beyond the regional waters there. Uh, they, they're required to be registered, so they actually do, uh, an inspection and then revalidate this. But these regulations are really poorly enforced for, for example, just one of the, um, standards that, um, that they need to comply with is the collision regulations.

So the collision regulations is the rules of the road for, um, for commercial boats or for any boat, to be honest, are globally. So these were developed. In 1972. And so for example, almost every country in the world is a, is a signatory to this convention. And, and so this, uh, in layman's terms means that, you know, you must have your port and starboard light, your all round light on to show people where you are going.

So Egypt is actually a signatory to this convention since, uh, 1986. Um, but the navigation lights on all the vessels that I looked at didn't meet any of the collision regulation requirements. The, um, the, the lights weren't separately fused. Um, the, the reason why they're supposed to be separately fused is that ensurers when one navigation light goes out, they all don't go out.

Um, they didn't, they meet any basic navigation requirements. They were missing charts. Um, most had no radars or substandard radars on board. They didn't have code flags and things like that. So I guess that's the, just one of the parts of the standards that, that that's one that they're obligated to comply with and they didn't even come close these boats.

Um, yeah. Can I just say that one of the operators that we did, and I I I'm sure they won't mind me mentioning their names, tornado Marine, um mm-hmm. We only did one of their boats as part of this audit for the university, and they really took this on board and rolled with it. Um, I'd like to say it was because they thought they want to get the best possible safety outcome, but they knew that the only way that they would get their boats chartered for like these lucrative one and two year charters for some of the work they're doing around, uh, neon in Saudi Arabia, was to meet these contemporary standards and make their boats, you know, a, a higher rating.

And they did. And when we, um, when we went back the start of this year, one of our other spares went there. There's certainly, well, they're at least satisfactory all their vessels. So that's, I guess, one positive outcome we've had from this as well.

Matt Waters: Um, I think that's interesting because I think, um, I think Tornado Marine had an incident, didn't they?

I was just trying a quick look there. Yeah, they have,

Mick Uberti: um, they've got a history. I think. I think every company that I searched while I was there had some somewhat of a history there. Um, but these guys were genuinely interested. You know, you could tell they weren't just, um, they weren't whenever we found, or whenever I found something wrong.

Um, and we, well, I had a closing meeting with 'em, and I was talking to 'em about, you know, what, what, what they needed. Like even, even, for example, life jackets, like they were using, um, 50 Newton Life jacket. What, what that means is that, that, uh, the average person. Um, is 80 kilos and you need at least 150 mutants to float that person.

Um, so if, if I'm, for example, I'm, I'm about 83 4 kilos. If, if I'm wearing a, uh, 50 Newton jacket, that's not gonna float me. So it doesn't have a collar on it, it's not a solace approved jacket, for example. And so I didn't see any good life jackets on any of these boats. And, and this guy, I'm sure they were financial enough and the next time I went back he, all of their boats were decked out with solace life jackets straight away.

You know? So like I said, that

Matt Waters: was a real positive change,

Mick Uberti: uh, we made from that.

Matt Waters: Yeah, I think, um, you know. This is not a, uh, liveaboard company bashing route that I'm going down over the next few months. Um, more so I'm, I'm actually impressed by those companies that have had incidents and then have made positive change and learned from them Yes.

And do their utmost to, to bring safety to the fore. And it's, it's unfortunate that it takes an incident for it to occur, but at least it's not being ignored. Um, you know, the ones that do ignore it are the ones that we've got major concerns with. For sure.

Mick Uberti: Yeah, for sure. Um, so do you want me to just go through like some of the findings that I found and stuff like that?

Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, oh, in the communication side of things. Um, so most of the vessels, um, did actually have an operating VHF radio. Um, however, none of them had a, a HF radio, so high frequency radio or, or, um, or, or even a satellite phone. Um, none of the vessels had any emergency radio batteries to ensure that the radio work in the event of a power failure or anything like that, and none of the vessels on board had a onboard communication system to alert passengers and crew with instructions in the event of an emergency, like, you know, just a PA system or anything like that.

Um, okay. Only one boat that I inspected had an in date e on board. So that's the emergency positioning indicating rescue beacon. So when the, if a, in the event of an emergency, if the vessel went down, for example, um, this will automatically go off and alert satellites and alert whichever rescue authority is there.

Um, so you would think that that would be like something that you would just see normally all, all the vessels lacked safety equipment that would be even considered appropriate for a, a, um, as expected for a passenger vessel. So when I went there, i, I, it would be really unfair to apply. Um. Like the, the national standard for commercial vessels or even the UK work boat standard.

Um, so we just tried our, uh, I just tried our best to form a template that mostly best practice, but where they had an obligation to comply, then we're applying that. So for example, collision regulations. We did look at and have applied the, um, uh, the Caribbean, uh, dive liveaboard standard, which was made in, uh, in connection with the IMO.

And we've got a copy of that standard on our website as well. If anyone wanted to have a look at that. It, it's probably the lowest standard that we could find, but at least it was something that had been, um, applied and audited by the IMO even though they, they haven't put their, like, stamp on it or anything like that.

Um. Making these boats comply with, you know, 20, 25 contemporary standards from day one. It's just not achievable. So it's best to say, right, well, let's do the things that you can do. Like, there's no reason why you can't comply with safety equipment standards. Um, so that, that's what we imply implied on them.

Um, many of the life rafts that I, um, looked at, they didn't have any, any supporting certification. Um, there was no markings on the life rafts. None of them I looked at had a hydrostatic release. Um, what that is, is if, if the vessel goes down, um, it is a system that, um, it cuts a little rope. There's like a little razor that cuts a rope to allow the, um, life raft float free.

Um, it's still hooked up to the vessel with a painter line,

Mix: with a,

Mick Uberti: with a rope, and, uh, therefore people can get on on board it. But none of them had that feature on there. Um, most of the life rafts were installed in a position where it wouldn't even possible to launch it without three or four people. Um, some of the life rafts had no dates on them at all, like they'd scrubbed them off, stuff like that.

Um, none of the life jackets were clearly marked with the vessel ID, and they didn't display, like they didn't even have lights on them or anything like that. So yeah, really poor in that, in that case. Um, in terms of fire safety, what, sorry, go on. Would

Matt Waters: it, would it be just referring to the, the life jackets, would it refer to assume that these would be the kind of life jackets that they'd probably be using on the local resorts for jet skiers and surf?

They're the ones surfers, that kind of thing? Yeah, they're the ones, yeah. Yeah.

Mick Uberti: The, the, the clip and uh, what they say, the zip and clip ones, you know? Yeah. Yeah. The one that you're buying the bargain barrel from

Matt Waters: Woolies. Yeah. I've got no chance at 120 kilos. I'm going down with one of those things on. There you go.

Mick Uberti: Um, Jesus. Yeah, though, and most of them, I must say a lot of them were like brand new, you know, still in the, uh, in the cover, but it, it, it's just gonna be good for no one, you know, but mm-hmm. I didn't see any children life jackets at all. Um, it, they don't become mandatory until over a certain amount of passengers or tonnage on, on boats.

But, you know, I guess for a, a level of comfort, if they're having children on board, you would, you would wanna see life jackets for children. Um, yeah. None of the boats had a fixed firefighting system. Um. The purpose of this is to distinguish an engine room fire. So this, this works remotely by shutting down fans and vents and opening, uh, closing off the fuel.

Once all the closing devices are closed, then remotely you operate a fixed firefighting system that will distinguish that fire. None of the boats had that, that's like a mandatory requirement, um, on most commercial boats and even recreational boats come out with that as well. Only one of the boats that I looked at had an actual fixed detection system and, and that one on that case there that wasn't even commissioned.

The fire detection system should be a fixed system that can alert the crew via panel and alarm. Not one of those $8 50 ones that you buy from Woolies to, you know, you stick on with a double sided tape. Yeah, it doesn't really help. Yeah. Um, so all, all of the vessels that I looked at didn't have one working fire pump.

Um. And so none of them had operational fire hydrants on board, and none of them had a fire safety plan displayed either. Jesus. Um, none of them had a structural fire protection, so that's like an installation around an engine room. So it, it pr it makes the boundary, um, it prevents the boundary from heating up quickly and the fire spreading.

Mm-hmm. Um, but none of them had that. Yeah. That, that's a requirement on most commercial boats or all commercial boats that carry passengers. Um, it, there's none of them have it had it, especially birthed accommodation. They didn't have that. Um, the, the galleys, um, all of them had a deep fat fryer, but none of them had a fire extinguisher system that was suitable to extinguish a fire over the top of that in the case.

No. Um, the crew accommodation was really interesting. Like we touched on before, I mean, these guys are getting paid patents, so the fact that they get a bed is probably a bonus for these guys, right? Um, but there's a minimum requirement. Um, one of those other, um, IMO conventions that I didn't mention before is the Maritime Labor Convention, which came about in 2006, and that was for, um, SEA that was brought about.

So seafarers could meet minimum living standards on board boats. They could, um, meet minimum, um, hours of rest, um, that it ensure that they would be repatriated, that it, they would ensure that they would be paid. So that's why they came about. So I just tried to apply on some of the bigger boats, the minimum and maximum births per cabin and stuff like that.

So. Even though I understand these boats were used domestically, but it was just a, I guess a benchmark, you know, 'cause it's just a minimum size. But, um, none of these, so for example, the MLC Maritime Labor Convention states that there's a maximum of four births per cabin and one bathroom for each cabin.

And none of these vessels meet that standard or even close. For example, one of the vessels, I won't say the name, but, um, there, there's a crew of 10 in one cabin with one bathroom. Um, so

Mix: yeah.

Mick Uberti: Uh, I've seen worse than that in my years though, but yeah. But that was, that was pretty bad. Um, one of the vessels had the crew commutation located forward the collision bulkhead.

So that, that's like a no no. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Matt Waters: and that, just to clarify, a cl c collision bulkhead is to protect against impact from Yeah. Correct. So it's a, it's a watertight subdivision.

Mick Uberti: They're inside

Matt Waters: getting squished.

Mick Uberti: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think, yeah, a crew cabin is not permitted to be in a work area such as a, on the bridge or the galley or an engine room or anything like that.

Um, as the crew is supposed to be rested when they're off. So the upside on all these boats was the interiors, like, uh, touched on before, like the interior and guest accommodation. All these vessels really present in really, really good condition. Um, and, uh, enough to entice most people to wanna go on board, you know, for a week or two.

Why not? You know, they, they really did look good. I mean, the fixtures and fittings were all nice. Um, that was the first thing that they would start re refitting on the, on the boats that were starting to look re a bit tardy that I saw in the, in the shipyards there as well.

Matt Waters: Um, um, speaking of the, speaking of the shipyards, I'm jump in on that one.

Um, and I, I, I remember when I first put a post out about this topic and, uh, you know, I, I coin the phrase lipstick on a pig. Um, because there's the, those, those rumors and whether they're facts or not, I dunno, um, but using old registered holes that are of, of wooden origin to then build upon and, and create this, this lavish, outwardly looking beautiful vessel.

Did you see any of that at the shipyards?

Mick Uberti: I did not, but that, but I did hear all those stories too. I mean, I saw, I mean, I didn't dig deep enough into that. Um, how, how this came about was that after I did all these inspections, I then just started searching about, wow, has. Who's doing something about it, because I reached out to the Egyptian Maritime Safety Authority and I said, Hey, I, um, I'm also, uh, certified with the International Institute of Marine Surveyors.

So, you know, I feel that there's a level of responsibility just to least alert, um, the local authority that what I saw wasn't safe. For example, in Australia as an amster accredited marine surveyor, we, we have that obligation on our accreditation. Yeah. So if we, if we see, if we're on a commercial vessel, um, and we feel that that's not safe, we should let someone know.

So I just, I just felt that that was like professional due diligence to let someone know about it. Um, yeah, so I did, but I got donuts from them. And then in my searches I came across, um, justice, who had completed a thesis, um, on dive liveaboard incidents and accidents. Uh, I'm, I'm sure you've read that.

Have you, Matt? I have. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so I thought, geez, this is an interesting guy. Let me get in touch with him. And then I, and he was, he was interested to chat and he said, could he see the reports? And that's not something I'm able to give because I did that work on behalf of a client, so that rest with the clients.

But what I did was I reached out to the Egyptian, uh, sorry, the Saudi Arabian University, and I said, Hey, these guys are really interested in making change here and being proactive. Would you mind if I, you know, I got rid of all of the, um, sensitive details on that. Would you mind if I share those reports with those guys?

No, they're more than happy to have them. Um, so that was great. And then I met up with, uh, Armin and jp, uh, from TaTaucher. Is that, am I pronouncing correctly? Taucher Do net. Uh, taTaucher. Tacha, yeah. Not net. And, um, so they're there. They're a bunch of, um, you probably can describe them better than me, but they just come across me to me as like dive junkies and, um, so, uh, and they're based in Egypt and they're, and they're really passionate about, um, safety onboard these vessels and making a change.

And they've educated me more into this, um, uh, into what's happening there as well. Um, not just in Egypt, but globally. So, um, they spoke to me about what's, what's happening Now, I don't, again, I don't know if this is true, but what I do know is that there's a finite amount of licenses that Egyptian Authority for Maritime Safety hand out for these liver boards.

And I can't remember what it is, but it's a small number. And so. A lot of these guys, when business is good, they would like to build another boat, however they can't. So they take an old registration and just add another deck and another deck to that. And um, and what I saw there was I saw boats that when you're looking at them, you think, wow, that stability would be really compromised by being that high and that narrow.

Um, but I have no evidence to suggest that this was happening, but this is what I'm hearing. And some of the operators were telling me this as well. Um, so yeah, there, there's a finite amount and they, I guess do what they can to try and make a, make a buck, don't they? Um, I'm sure you've heard these stories as well.

Have you, uh, this is not new to you.

Matt Waters: I have, uh, and it doesn't take a genius to look at the, the, the boats when they're on the water and, and realize that proportionally it's a dump site higher than what it should be.

Mick Uberti: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Um, probably, uh, the main. Cause of concern on a lot of these boats. When I, um, when I was on board and in my reports was the design and construction standards.

So most of them were not built to a standard at all. So it's built to ensure passenger comfort, um, and maximize the passenger experience, I guess. So you had these vessels that you walked down onto the, to the lower deck and, uh, you would see it without any subdivisions. So we spoke about collision bulkhead before the, the boat should be, um, divided into, um, multiple divisions and you can only access from one side to the other going through a watertight bulkhead.

So these water type subdivisions weren't evident on any of the vessels. And the purpose of this is to ensure that if the hull is compromised in, um. That a single failure will not, um, sink the vessel. Uh, if you think about some famous incidents, so the Titanic, the watertight bulkheads did not extend to the, to the top.

So when, although the vessel was only compromised in one section, it was supposed to be unsinkable, but the watertight bulkheads didn't extend all the way to the top. So the boat took a long time to sink because the water slowly filled up, um, one side of the bulkhead and then spilled over to the next.

And yeah, the rest is, uh, history and, uh, history. The more recently the cost of Concordia, um, the, that boat there, like, um, it, because the rip in the hole was so great, it actually went through more than two of the bulkheads. Um, it was that long on the side. Therefore, more than. I think more than two compartments were compromised with water and therefore the vessel sunk.

Um, so that's the purpose of having a, a, a water site bulkhead or subdivisions so that a single failure doesn't, um, compromise the vessel. Um, and that just simply goes back to the design stage. So a lot of these boats are not gonna comply with that even now, um, unless they make major changes, which is unlikely.

Um, but they can do other things. Uh, you know, like for example, none of the vessels I looked at, uh, sorry. One of the vessels I looked at had a stability book. So the stability book is there to, um, ensure that the vessel, um, is operated within its limitations, um, by the crew and the operator. Um, none of these boats had these stability books.

That doesn't mean it didn't exist, but it certainly wasn't on board the vessel and the knowledge of most of these, um, captains. They probably wouldn't really understand how to read it or what parts to apply from that as well. Um, so that I, I guess those two big things would, that they were really poor, you know, like to not see that on board the votes and, and that makes them, without those two things above everything else, like just inherently unsafe like that.

Mix: Yeah.

Mick Uberti: Yeah. Which we saw those two things, um, were, were most likely the cause of concern or cause of failure for the c story that went down.

Mix: Yeah.

Mick Uberti: Sorry Matt, I interrupted.

Matt Waters: Is it, is it difficult to get a stability book or is it just a lack of train and a knowledge?

Mick Uberti: Uh, so this is done at the design stage, um, generally by the designer or naval architect, and we develop a stability book for the vessel, um, on a smaller vessel, um, uh, on larger vessels.

It's, it's a, they, they model it, um, to work out the stability. Um, they can complete an incline experiment where they put weights and simulate, um, the, the weight that will be going on the boat. Um, and then they move it from side to side, take measurements, go back to the modeling and do it that way. And we, we do even simplify tests on smaller vessels in where we would move, um, just barrels of water around and we simulate, um, the movement of passenger from one side to another.

Um, measure, measure the loss of freeboard, and then determine how many passengers can be on this boat, for example, um, the loss of freeboard. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. The, the, uh, how, how much the boat dips down on one side and the other. Yeah. Um, on the stability book, you might even see, um, some limitations placed on there.

For example, the, the master must, um, ensure that there is no more than X amount of passengers on the upper deck, or there's not more than X amount of passengers on the four deck, for example. Mm-hmm. Um, and that should be known, but that should be clear. And so unfortunately, that sort of knowledge was not, was not there.

Matt Waters: Yeah. So, I mean, a a, a perfect diving example of that is when everyone's getting ready to go for a dive and almost every man and his dog is on the back deck, on the, on the dive platform. And, uh, if people can visualize in their head the weight would be bringing the, the rear of the vessel and pointing the bow up to the sky.

Mick Uberti: Yeah. Good point. I mean, uh, whale watching tours have that, that problem, you know, when the whale's on the port side, everyone runs over there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There, there was an incident on one of those where there was fatalities unfortunately as well. Uh, sadly, uh, in Canada, uh, it was probably nearly 10 years ago now that I remember reading about that one.

Um, you know, with the, the boat just capsized, um, from people. Yeah. Moving from one side to the other, but, but again, you know, the, was it being operated in accordance with its stability book? Probably not as well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Matt Waters: Okay. Well, um, as far as, um, you know, getting prepared to, or deciding on which liveaboard you're gonna go on, there's a lot of the websites out there that, that advertise will have.

So much data on there that it provides this, this, this feeling of, of being safe. But that feeling of being safe is just a massive information on a page and within, uh, the safety section, shall we call it, is a lot of words and a lot of green ticks. And it's very easy for an operator to sign themselves up to a website like this, and then we're relying on that operator to say what they've got on board.

All of a sudden you've got all these superb green ticks. So my question to you would be that as a, um, dive agent, as a booking agent for operators, what can we do to try and, um, reinforce, uh, it, reinforce is the wrong word, but try and, and clarify what is actually, uh. Um, available on the boat. Safety wise, are there questions that we can put to the operators rather than just getting ticks from the operators and a thumbs up and a green?

Sure. A okay sign.

Mick Uberti: So

Matt Waters: pro

Mick Uberti: I I think a really good starting point. We've, um, with the guys at Taucher, um, so JP and Arm in mostly, um, on our, on the Maritime Survey International website, there's a section there around dive liveaboard and safari vessel surveys that we've done and we've put a, um, a, a, there's a, a tab there called standards, references, and links.

And on there there's the checklist that we use. Um, and so we, we've made that available. We've put in there the, the standards that we've applied as well. Um, so far we've done around about 12 inspections and we developed a rating system, so a five star rating system. Um, we didn't want this to be a naming and shaming, um, for the vessels that opted in to, to get it because they're obviously paying us money.

Um, so we thought we would only record, um, on our website, the ones, the vessels that actually were at least satisfactory. So that would allow the, um. You know, the, the diver to make an informed decision. Now, unfortunately, out of all the vessels that we looked at originally, most of them, uh, like I said to you, um, some of the tornado marine boats or all of the tornado marine boats were at least satisfactory.

But we've given them an opportunity to, um, correct some of the deficiencies, which may make their rating at least up to good. So, um, uh, we're, we're leaving it to them, so you won't see any of the boats listed on our website just yet. But I think to answer your question as what they, what can they do? They, they could at least say, Hey, here's a, uh, here's a checklist that these guys at Taucher and Maritime Survey International have developed.

Um, can we at least apply this, um, to the vessel? Um, alternatively, like I went through before, you we're really leaving a lot up to the, the passenger here. Know, at least have a little knowledge on what to look for. But I think anyone can ask those questions. And like you said, you can ask for these registration and survey certificates.

However, as you just mentioned, you know, that they can hand you, especially a lot of these countries, they will just give you this certificate and expect you to be happy with that. That in the case of the ones in Egypt, God only knows how they're issuing these certificates because, um, they, they certainly don't comply with any of, even their own mandatory standards that we've seen.

Um, so, so you, you just can't trust this official government document, which is. On the passenger, or in our case, the, because like I said before, there, there's just a, an expectation that, that they're going to be safe when they walk on board at a commercial vessel, and they shouldn't have to feel worried about that.

And could you share with me how much they're actually paying for these one week, two week liveaboard Ventures? Um,

Matt Waters: oh yeah. I mean it's, um, e Egypt is, um, it's, it's very well known as a very cheap place to go. So you can, you can get a five or six night liveaboard for as little as 700 US dollars. Um, and then, you know, it can range up to three or 4,000 depending on, you know, how much looks you want and, and what locations or regions of the Red Sea you're going to.

Some even push down into Sudan, Sudanese Water, Northern Sudanese. Um, so the prices go up a bit, but. I think it's fair to say with the amount of vessels that are available in Egypt, that it's very much a, a, a race to the bottom pricing market. Um, there's a constant battle to, you know, make it five star luxury and give everything for $10.

Um, so I, I, I do genuinely believe that, um, you know, greed has a, a significant role in everything we're discussing around safety.

Mick Uberti: Can you tell me when, uh, when someone comes to you and wants to go on a dive liveaboard trip, what, uh, what would you say rate as the, you know, I guess the, the most important thing to them, um, to, you know, what are, what are I guess, the things that they're looking for?

The features? Like, is it, do they ever ask about safety? Do they just ask about price and location, like,

Matt Waters: yeah.

Mick Uberti: Okay,

Matt Waters: generally, um, generally I'll get inquiries and they'll be, you know, I can jump on X boat, how much is it gonna cost me? Well, that particular trip is gonna cost you X amount. And it's usually followed up with the reply that, oh, well I found it on another website at this price.

Okay, fill your boots, go for it. So you're just talking about price. Um, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's always down to price. Uh, it's very rarely it's down to safety. I, I think maybe in the last five years I've been asked about safety three times. Um, it's, it, it's that level of assumption that we spoke of earlier on.

You know, it's, it's a boat that's registered to take divers and everybody assumes that it's gonna be safe. And this is why I'd like to do the round table so that we can raise that level of awareness to, would be customers, but also get the insider look on it as well, because within the Red Sea. We do have those genuine operators that wanna do their best and bring their best game to the table, and they're being, um, black handed or black marked with, with everyone else.

That's, that's more, you know, that, that effectively doesn't give a shit about safety. They just wanna make money. So I, I wanna bring a balanced view from all angles. This is why I'm talking to you as the expert on, on, on what you do. And I've got many other experts that wanna come on board that are expedition leaders, operators that own vessels, um, you know, guys that have just built their first liveaboard vessel and the safety elements that they're putting into place.

All of this kind of stuff. And even people that have been on boats that have had major accidents or incidents and have a balanced view on it so that everybody can benefit. And, you know, not, not just a point, point the finger kind of, uh, game, but my. My overarching desire is to somehow raise the awareness to the customer, the person that's gonna go on what could possibly be their trip of a lifetime.

You know, depending on their budget, um, you know, and their dreams. But we wanna make it safe. And their best way to do that right now is to educate that person, because trying to put into place something that's, you know, um, a requirement at a higher level is gonna take a very long time if it even occurs.

Yeah,

Mick Uberti: absolutely. Yeah. Uh, that was made pretty clear to us there. Um, I'll, yeah, just share on the, oh, so firstly, uh, when we, when we had a meeting, so. A conference call with around about 40 different dive liveaboard operators. Um, and of which only two of them signed up to us to have these inspections done.

Um, that said, I did get a lot of emails from them and they would, a lot of the timing that when we were gonna be there, um, didn't match up. But we have another trip planned soon, um, with our surveyor from, um, Spain going down to Egypt, which is a lot more feasible for us, and we can make cheaper for them.

But the, the questions we were getting from them all were really good. Um, and I guess it was obvious that people that would come to a, um, a forum like that would be interested in just getting better, you know, having better business. And what I saw from the tornado guys that they saw in, in, in real money terms, that having a safer boat meant.

Actually getting better clients and getting a 12 month quite lucrative charter for them. Um, some of the things I, other things I came across, I won't, I mean, I guess you get the impression that these boats weren't very good. Right. But I just thought it'd be of interest to tell you that not one of the vessels that I looked at in, in the engineering section.

And I, I'm obviously being a marine engineer. I'm, I'm more focused on the engineering side of things, just naturally. But not one of the vessels even had a build alarm installed anywhere on the vessel. So out of these 14 boats and on the first boat that I was on, I'm looking around for this IL arm and I've, and I've got the engineer with me, an Egyptian guy, and, you know, I was trying to explain to him what a IL arm was.

And then, and then he's like, dawned on even one of the other guys, explained to him what I was looking for and he, and he said to me, ah, we removed that because it was too noisy.

Oh dear, dear God. So I was like, well, who could ever argue with that logic? Eh, you know, so, yeah. Yeah. Uh, almost all the engine rooms that I went on, the bilges were, um, filled with oil, oil and water. Um, and many of the bilge pumps were not working. And there was also no secondary means of pumping or anything like that.

Um, the, the lighting was why, why inadequate? Um,

Matt Waters: just, just, just for people that aren't engineers and, and boaties, why is that an important point? Uh, the

Mick Uberti: bilge, bilge pumping systems. Um, so yeah, if one bilge, uh, so the, a bilge pump is a, um, uh, is a positive displacement pump or a, or a pump that removes the water from the vessel's.

Hu. Now if one of those fail, you really need that secondary means of pumping to start pumping out. Um, yeah. And the bilge, your arm is there to alert the, uh, the master or engineer on board the vessel that, uh, there's water in the bilge. Um, and we rely on these pumps to work. Um, most boats you would see, um, at least two pumps, like mechanical pumps on board.

Um, generally on these larger boats, you won't see those small, um, low voltage, uh, extra low voltage 12 volt bilge pumps. And they're pretty useless at the best of times anyway. 'cause they're not rated for continuous use. They'll only work for a couple of minutes and then, and then the, the little bi middle electric stren will stop and then they'll, um, they'll start again a bit later, but it just won't keep up with the inflow water.

So, yeah. Um, yeah, it's important for bilge pumping. I dunno, I, I, I could go on with the, you know, there was not many machinery guards on the, um. On the main engines and generators. So, you know, you have to be really careful walking around in there. There was, um, the exhaust systems on a lot of boats had leaks.

They were, there was a lot of corrosion. They were poorly insulated, poorly mounted. Um. None of the vessels that I looked at had a, which this actually surprised me because I thought the Red Sea was really focused on gray and black water discharge, if anything. But not one of the boats I looked at had a black water treatment system SY system on board.

So for any of the, what's, what's, uh, yeah, what's the Blackwater? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, when you go to the toilet, the, um, water will go into a holding tank and there's different types of, uh, blackwater treatment systems, but not too different to what we have on land, where, you know, the water goes to a treatment plant, uh, or the wastewater goes to a treatment plant and then it is, uh, you know, sent off as, uh, lower grade water or goes back out to sea when it's, uh, all filtered with all of the toxic waste in there.

Um, so, and we have these smaller versions of these black water treatment systems or gray water, uh, treatment systems onboard the, onboard the boat. So black waters is the toilet water and gray waters like from your sinks and showers. Um, so prior to going outside the boat, um, then that water should be treated.

Um, so that doesn't harm any of the environment outside. So I didn't see one of those. There was certainly no oily water. Um. Discharge. So in one of the marpol, so requirements, so the, um, that's the convention that controls the, um, uh, oil, oil, water, and waste discharge. Um, they specify that when you are discharging oil, uh, you, you can on ships that it must be no greater than 15 parts per million of oil in the water.

So it, what that means to the layman is that there would be no sheen on the water. You wouldn't see like an oily sheen on the water. Yeah. Um, and so it goes through this, um, what, what's called like a coalescence filter. Um, and that removes the oil from the water and then dis discharges the waste. So although some of these boats were probably too small to trigger that, but they didn't have any means of, of, uh, capturing that oil.

Um, so your guess is as good as mine where all that oil from the build ends up.

Mix: Yeah.

Mick Uberti: Yeah.

Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, um, I think without looking it up, what, 790 ish liveaboard vessels in Egypt that are probably all doing the same for the most part. Yeah. You would say so,

Mick Uberti: yeah, you would say so.

Matt Waters: Um, did you, um, did you, did you look at the, uh, at, at the Red Seafer?

It's, um, I guess it, its state. Um, I kind of, I, I, I don't think people see the Red Sea as an open ocean where you're gonna get big waves kind of thing. They see it as a closed rather large gap in, in the land. But I'm, I've been trying to push the fact that the, the weather conditions can get pretty damn Moy.

Mick Uberti: Oh yeah. It gets pretty shitty there. I've, I've sailed up, uh, but through the sewer canal, so I've sailed up. So from Dubai, you know, make a right-hand turn and then go up the, uh, through the Red Sea and then into the Suez. Um, yeah, down, down the bottom. Uh, especially towards the bottom of the Red Sea, it gets really, really choppy.

Um, yeah, it's not, not the most pleasant of waters and, uh, they're quite short, um, short, stumpy, little waves all the time around there as well, so, no, and they, they get the larger chamal and, you know, winds, uh, throughout the Middle East there as well. So yeah, it can be not so pleasant at all. Um, I must say though, I, uh, while I was there on.

Both the recent trips I did, um, yeah, I, I did manage to go for a swim in, in the, in the Red Sea. And it is gorgeous. It is beautiful. It was really clear. Uh, the second time I made sure I bought my goggles so that I could actually see some stuff and, uh, yeah, no, I just had a couple of mornings free, you know, and I thought I'll go for a quick swim.

And, uh, yeah, it was gorgeous. Uh,

Matt Waters: it was very, oh yeah, under no illusion. It's, there's a reason people go to the Red Sea and the Absolutely. And the biodiversity's fantastic. Let alone the wrecks as well. Yeah. You know, it's. A fantastic location. Just need to sort out the shit above the surface really. Yeah.

Mick Uberti: I actually went to Dar hub as a, when I was in, uh, as a 21-year-old backpacker, so a long time ago.

And, um, uh, I actually did a dive around there on the Red Sea, and it was, uh, it was gorgeous and always, always wanted to get back there. I didn't think I'd go back there 20 or 30 years later. Um, yeah, nearly 30 years later. Um, inspecting boats, but, you know, I was really happy to get back. So, um, the people in Egypt, like the, uh, the, the guys boats, the, we were inspecting, um, just super polite, super nice, like, uh, really, um, they weren't your normal vessel operator that we deal with, that it can, you know, it, it can get heated at times or confrontational or whatever, but they, these were very, very nice people and, um, very accommodating as well.

Uh. Like, I don't wanna paint a bad picture of, of Egypt for by, by no stress. The imagination, like the, um, and the waters there were amazing.

Matt Waters: Yeah, no, I, I, I echo that, you know. Yeah. About 18 months, two years ago now that we're, I was over in Jordan with a mate of mine on a photography competition and, you know, hosted by Mohamed ledi at, uh, big Blue dha, uh, big Blue, a aba, sorry.

And, um, it couldn't be more courteous and, and and welcoming if you tried, you know, it was a fabulous, fabulous location and, and people to be around. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. And the same, I, I've been to dive Diab several times and many years ago I did, I even did my first dive and, uh, just off the wall at DI Hub.

Mix: Cool. Yeah.

Matt Waters: Um. So the, the other thing that crosses my mind as well, when we're talking about the, the, the, the, the way that the majority of the boats seem to be substandard is that, um, maybe with the, the, the cut and paste cookie kind of cutter, um, way that operations are being made out there, that the, uh, standards have just dropped over the years with rinse and repeat and copying the next guy to get a boat out there and start making money.

Um, and I wonder if the, uh, if there's a, a major lack of education on, on, you know, this topic. And I think from this discussion alone, uh, that kind of highlights, there's a major, major hole there that needs to be filled.

Mick Uberti: So Ma uh, you're aware that after the Seesaw story incident, so I'm sure a lot of your listeners would be aware of that one, but, uh, so that's the incident that happened in November last year, October, November last year, in which, uh, the vessel capsized, um, and people died.

I don't wanna give the number because I'll get, get it wrong. So, as a result of this incident and the heat that they were getting mostly from the UK government, the UK have since issued a warning to travelers going to Egypt and boarding these boats. But, um, one of the things the Egyptian Maritime Authority immediately did was, um, made sure that the engineers, uh, had their, uh, had their licenses, um, and speaking to the guys there, um, none of them, or most of them, did not have engineering licenses on board these boats.

And, um. And it wasn't necessarily their fault. Uh, the Egyptian Maritime Authority was the one that, um, issues it to these seafarers. Um, and many had applied or done courses and hadn't received it. So, you know, their admin was quite poor, but there was just a lack of people to actually go on board these boats.

So my understanding was that as a result of that, they were canceling a lot of trips, not because they felt the boats were unsafe, uh, just because they could not get the crew with the appropriate license on board. Um, yeah.

Matt Waters: Yeah. And that therein caused a, a, a knock on effect and an issue because, excuse me, because, um, people were getting, you know, heading out to location to get on a particular boat that they've booked, only to find that when they get there, the boat wasn't leaving ports and they were being placed onto substandard replacement boats, um, which made the the situation even worse.

Um, so again, this is the thing that we've gotta try and protect against and, um, maybe by bringing that education level up as well. And there's nothing we can do to, to bring that education level up in, in Egypt, you know, that's, that's on them. Um, but we can certainly bring up the education level of, of the listeners and the, the people that are gonna be getting on these vessels.

Absolutely. Yeah. I, I totally agree. Yeah.

Mick Uberti: Yeah. Um, I, I made a list of, of things that you would do if in an ideal world, but obviously, um, obviously this is not really, well, let's just say in an ideal world, because I can't see this sort of thing happening in Egypt, but you could adopt an enforced international standards that problem with enforcement there.

'cause they don't have the money. Of course. You, um, you could invest in education and training. Um, I, I think in a country like Egypt though, they. They've probably got other things to be spending money on than this. Um, you, you could make the certification and inspection mandatory. So not being done by the Egyptian Maritime Authority because probably the best way to put it is that that system's being compromised.

So the people that are inspecting and certifying those vessels, maybe they need to go to a third party or someone else to do that. Um, but I think the one thing that we can do is that we can encourage public accountability. The, these charters like divers, passengers, they have a crucial role to place.

Start being inquisitive when you are, um, when you are making a booking as we've spoken about. You know, start making inquiries about safety measures. When was the last inspected, you know, ask all these things. Um, you know, I mean, if I. Our company a plug, you know, ask them if they've, they've engaged with Ms I to do an inspection.

I mean, you know, that'd be great. But, um, uh, but I, I think broadly, more broadly, you know, um, that, that, that I think is the easiest thing that we can implement, right? Like without, without having a massive bucket of money and relying on government agencies to do some something. Just start asking questions from the operator.

If you had, um, Matt, can I, sorry, can I just pause for one second? I've got someone on the door. Just wanna let him in. Sorry. That's pretty. Yeah, go. Sorry mate. I'll be one second.

Matt Waters: That's all right. I'll put the cat on. It's easy just to pause, but, uh, yeah, so, um, in, lemme turn that ke off, that's gonna be back.

Um, when we're, when we're thinking about the liveaboards and people getting on the boat agents as well that are, uh, bringing operations onto their websites, et cetera, if you had to choose 10 questions or, or points to ask, because there's a lot of information in that checklist. What would be the top 10 for you?

So maybe

Mick Uberti: start with the easy ones, like ask them about the, um, certification. So has your vessel been inspected and does it have a certificate, like a certificate of registration or survey or something like that. So something that'll give them some sort of comfort in that way. And then I guess you could, if you wanted to go deeper, say, did, does the vessel have an approved stability book?

Um, can I see that, see a copy of it? Like even if they just showed them the front cover and you could ask them if the vessel complies with the, um, minimum subdivision requirements as well, so that, that. That's not 10, but that's probably a good start. And then you could go deeper into the other ones, like fire safety, um, you know, ask them about fire extinguishers, fixed firefighting systems.

You'd ask them about, um, safety equipment, like life rafts and life jackets and things like that. So I would start with the certification, um, of compliance and ask them when was it last inspected, you know, um, e even perhaps, why not ask for a copy of that safety report? So when was it last inspected? Can I have a copy of that report?

Like, I mean, it's, uh, they're probably reluctant to give that sort of thing, but, um, you can ask. They're only gonna say no, aren't they? You know, so, yeah. Um,

Matt Waters: so when, when, when you go out and they inspect a vessel like you've done with these, these ones previously. Yep. Um, you obviously provide them with a, an inspection report.

Yes. Um. Is it something that they can then put on their website and say, look, we have had an independent audit from MSI, um, if they wanted to put a, put a link up to the report, um, or at least at the very least, highlight that they've been audited independently as opposed to just the local government.

Mick Uberti: Well, that, that's actually an intention. So we're, we'll be putting it on our, um, site. The, the guys at have made a, um, the, the, the star rating. Um, you can see. How it's, um, implemented on our website. So whether it's 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, uh, um, so if the boat is on our website, then generally it would be a good one. But we need a greater sample size, though at the moment.

We've only just started this. Yeah. And we need more buy-in from the operators. So Yeah, for the moment, I mean, it'd be great if more people were doing it. You know, we, we've had inquiries even in Indonesia, um, Maldives, so we've had inquiries that have been coming in, but, um, that that's all they are at the moment.

Yeah.

Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. And at the moment, um, uh, the price point I is probably a concern for operators. Um, I would

Mick Uberti: imagine that's true. Like, um, it, it's around about 3000 euros to, to get an inspection done. Um, we, we have that advertised on our side as well. Yeah. Uh, for a lot of these, I, I understand that's an expensive cost, but it's, it's also expensive for us to get people out there and do the work, um, as well.

And then there's the. There's a risk that we hold as well with our, um, PI and PL insurances, um, that that, that we have to have when we're looking at these boats also. So, you know that that's the reason for the, for the higher costs. Yeah. Yeah. The inspections usually take a couple of days as well, so, um, and then we put a report together as well, so it's a lot of involvement from our end.

Mix: Yeah,

Matt Waters: yeah, yeah. And, uh, is it Taha that, uh, organizing, you know, or advertising the fact that you guys are gonna be on location at x date and people can. Book a slot if they want

Mick Uberti: to. Yeah, they have, um, TTRA have been great. They've been promoting it. Um, I must say they get a lot of, um, on their Facebook site, they, whenever they put something up there about, you know, doing inspections that there's, there's a lot of, um, people that just bag it and, uh, just saying it's a, it's a money grab and, uh, things like that.

And we're always gonna get people that, uh, will think that as well. Um, but yeah, I must say from from my end, uh, uh, it certainly hasn't been a, um. Uh, it certainly hasn't been lucrative or anything like that. We, we wouldn't have even broken, even at the moment with the money we've invested in, in trying to do this.

So, um, it mostly been out of interest. Obviously, there was a long term approach. We thought that, you know, maybe we could set the original standard and then hopefully, you know, we get a lot of people adopting it in, into it. But that, I, I realized that's gonna be really tough because most of the vessel operators that we're dealing with are, um, not gonna be able to afford it.

Um, but, you know, in the case of like tornado Marine, um, but they really saw the value in that. And, and I honestly, I think that without us being there, they most likely wouldn't have been rewarded with these larger, um, vessel contracts, um, that, that they've achieved. Yeah.

Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, um, I mean, it, it, it, it's.

Probably common sense dictates, you know, if the, if the operator's gone to the, the extent of investing, you know, a hefty lump of money into getting a, an independent audit done, then it, it, it, it highlights in big neon lights that they're, they're keen to make sure that, um, the service they're providing is at, at, at top notch and professional and, and above all safe.

Mix: Agree.

Matt Waters: Agree.

Mix: Yeah,

Matt Waters: I think, um, just keep on going at it, buddy. 'cause um, it can only grow. Well, hopefully,

Mick Uberti: hopefully, um, uh, yeah, we, we, we, we don't want there to be more incidents and accidents, but unfortunately they just keep coming, don't they? Like I, I'm sure you have an alert set up as well. I mean, I open a, a Google alert set up for these liver incidents and accidents.

They just keep coming. So it's, uh, yeah. Um, it's not great.

Matt Waters: No, no. Yeah. And it's, um, yeah. It, it is a big issue everywhere. I mean, a lot of people would argue that there's more incidents now because there's so many more vessels on the water. Yeah. That's understandable. But at the same time of the coin, a lot of those vessels out there are still being built to 1980 standards.

And that's about it.

Mick Uberti: Yeah.

Matt Waters: Or, or no standards. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Um, oh, sorry, go on.

Mick Uberti: Oh, no, I was just gonna say the, I was gonna share with you about the shipyards in, uh, in Alexandria. That was like walking back into 1980s. So, really, well, well, I mean, they just don't have the, the, like contemporary safety standards and so on and so forth.

You. So the, I went to a yard, actually went to one in all, all over. So in Alexandria in, um, where they were building steel, steel ships there. Um, another one in, um, in Charmel Sheik where they were refitting and building timber boats and a variety of all different ones near her Garda as well. They're doing a lot of work, but you know, in terms of the, the workers safety standards in the, in the shipyards, yeah, they're, they're not something that you would be familiar with locally or anything like that.

But, um, always interesting to see flip flops. Yeah,

Matt Waters: flip flops and a far hanging out your mouth. Yeah.

Mix: Yeah.

Matt Waters: Oh dear. Okay, cool. Hey, um, before we round it out, um Sure. Can I entice you to, um, come into the round table chat at some point in the future? Yeah, sure. Why not? That would be awesome. It'd be awesome to have your knowledge on side so that if people get a bit confused or need clarification, then you are, you are the subject matter expert.

Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you. Cool. Alright. Um, I think we'll round it out for that at the moment. We've been going for an hour and a half, so, um, I think we're doing well there. There we go.

Mick Uberti: Well, um, thanks for having me, Matt. I do appreciate it. Um, yeah, and I'll, I'll definitely start hooking into the show and learning more about, more about what you guys do as well and, uh, yeah, I'll, I'll shout out to the guys at Taucher as well.

'cause, um, the, I'm sure they're doing a lot of things in line with what you are as well.

Matt Waters: Yeah, yeah. I did send them a, a quick message and, you know, I sent an invite to come on the podcast and it's a, it's a, a thumbs up, but then there's been no response following a thumbs up. You know, it's, um, yeah, probably not, not high on their, their, their list of things to do.

I, no, they always seem to me doing that stuff. I'll mention it to them for sure. Yeah. Happy days. Alright Mick, thanks very much for your time, mate, and um, I'll give you a shout when we push this out and I'll put all the links into MSI on the show notes and, um, bid you a a, a good weekend. Uh, thank you

Mick Uberti: Matt.

Thanks for having me on my appreciate it. Thanks you. Thanks Listers, ciao for now.

safety

The Truth About Liveaboard Safety, Part 1: Marine Surveyor - Mick Uberti