Maxime Cheminade - Exploring Mines & Wreck Photography

[00:00:00] Matt Waters: Hey there dive buddies and welcome to the show. Today I am thrilled to introduce you to Maxime Cheminard, a talented dive photographer who I first met at the inaugural International Underwater Photography Competition in Aqaba, Jordan, where he received an honorable mention at the award ceremony for his awesome image of the Cedar Pride.

Max's journey into the world of diving began during his time in the French military and after transitioning to civilian life, He pursued his passion as a dive instructor in Thailand. It was during this time that he found himself under the tutelage of Mikko Paasi, dive shop owner and Thai cave rescue hero.

Together with Mikko and other diving legends, Max has explored Thailand's long forgotten flooded mines and through the fantastic bottom line initiative, they've mapped kilometers of submerged tunnels, created options for mine diving training. And revitalized tourism, boosting the local economy. Join me as I catch up with Max and dive deeper into his career, past, present, and future, please enjoy.

Welcome to the scuba go podcast with Matt Waters. Let's dive right in.

[00:01:09] Maxime Cheminade: What was that year ago? I read it. Yeah.

[00:01:11] Matt Waters: Well, that was, um, oh, that was February, my birthday, February. Oh, February. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:18] Maxime Cheminade: And you've been a busy boy. Almost a year ago. Yeah, it's been, it's been a very interesting year, uh, between exploration, expedition, uh, all of the, um, uh, things that goes around it, crashing a car.

What? Have you not seen that? No, you crashed

[00:01:40] Matt Waters: a car? Mikko and

[00:01:42] Maxime Cheminade: I. Yeah. Mikko and I fell off a bridge in the expedition car. Yeah. When? You haven't seen? Uh, first of September. Okay, that's a funny story. So we were exploring a brand new mine in the top of North of Thailand, like almost at Myanmar border. And it was raining, you know, start of monsoon.

So we knew it wasn't the greatest weather and we went into like, it was very off road and we couldn't go back to the road we basically took in. So we had to find a second road. Luckily it was a second road. If not, we've been stuck there and on the way, like 200 meter from the main road. Um, oh, we had a bit of a tricky turn to do.

It was very go like it was going down and it was a tricky turn and we fell off a bridge and ended up three meter down. So I had 35, um, stitches on the head. Uh, yeah, great day. Yeah.

[00:02:45] Matt Waters: Did someone just come along and find you or was, was Mikko okay to get

[00:02:50] Maxime Cheminade: someone or what? No, no, no. We had, I had to call rescue.

So I called friends at rescue, uh, here in Koh Tao. And then they relate to Suratani, they relate to, uh, where we were. And then he come and pick us up. Bloody hell. Had to do hospital for a few days. Yeah. But yeah, that was interesting experiences.

[00:03:10] Matt Waters: To say the least. Yeah,

[00:03:12] Maxime Cheminade: to say the least. What about Mikko? Did Mikko get

[00:03:14] Matt Waters: any injuries as well?

[00:03:16] Maxime Cheminade: No, I'm the only one. Mikko's injury were more his, um, like his ego. And the car. Well, he bounces better than you clearly. Yeah. I mean, we fixed it. The car is fixed. I don't know how to, I'll send you a picture later. The car is fixed. It's unbelievable that he fixed that. Um, but yeah, no, so we had this, uh, we had, I mean, this year we had the eight X, uh, with my income for the first year of my income, we had, I mean, a lot of things happening actually, uh, in the period this year.

[00:03:51] Matt Waters: Well, but before we go into what's going on right now, let's wind it all the way back to before the time you had fluff on your face. Um, how did you, obviously you come from France, but how did you get into diving in the first place?

[00:04:08] Maxime Cheminade: Well, I said, that's a very funny story. Um, so my, my first dive, I was, I was a kid.

Um, I was, I wouldn't call it a dive, but my first experience with scuba diving was, I was seven, six, seven years old. I, I remember seeing the James Bond movie at the time. It was, um, Tomorrow Never Dies and it was a massive, a beautiful like scene scenery with a diaper and, uh, my family and I were in, uh, in, uh, holidays in the South of France, so a beautiful place.

And they were doing scuba experience, like in pool. And it was so annoying with my parents that they were like, okay, you have, okay, like here's for you. Here is your scuba experience for you. Um, like go for it. And I just fell in love with it. Uh, I was like, I started continuing to be a little bit of diving here and there.

And then my, my real, uh, experience with diving was when I was in the military. Okay. Uh, in the French, in the French military, I had a lot more experience with diving there, uh, playing more with explosives and dangerous materials. Um, So that was a very different kind of diving. Um, then I left the military, uh, went back to the civilian life, not, not so much diving at the time, decided to go back to during the holidays to diving with my partner at the time and discovered that my military experience wasn't, I was valued or anything at that time as, as, um, as a diver, so I started back, we were talking more than 10 years ago, so I started back and I redid my open water, which I learned some new concepts like buoyancy that were not absolutely taught in the military.

So it was actually a very, very interesting time. And, uh, and then, yeah, and then I continued from there. Basically, it's very. Like I decided later on to continue like doing a dive master, uh, then an instructor, uh, taught diving for a few years. Uh, and then, yeah, that's, then it get downhill from there.

[00:06:20] Matt Waters: Yeah.

So where did you do, uh, where did you do your dive master training?

[00:06:25] Maxime Cheminade: Uh, Guatao actually. Uh, I did it at a French shop called Guatao. I'm not sure if they're still active at the time. Uh, I did my dive, Aqua Tao, uh, very boutique, French, French shop, very small shop. I think they still exist. I think they still exist.

Uh, they are, um, it was, it was great training. I liked it. Uh, I did learn quite a few things there and then did my instructor like a month, a few months later, uh, same shop as well. On, yeah, obviously on Tao. Did you stay on Tao to do your teaching then? Um, yes and no. So, at the beginning, yeah, I did a year of teaching in Qau, uh, d Like not in the same shop, not at all.

Uh, I was in a small shop called Ocean Republic. That doesn't exist anymore. It used to be a sea shepherd dive affiliated shop. Mm-Hmm, . Uh, I did a little bit of high hand, high-end, um, uh, teaching to like five star results. That became also like, I did do my, my tech certification at a time, my first tech certification at a time.

Um, I, I, I had already tech experience when I was in the military, but none of them crossed back to the civilian world. So I rebuilt my, my entire like carrier portfolio as a scuba diver. Uh, also training was very, very different. Like we are not doing air at 80 meter on civilian world. Doesn't exist. Um, yeah, yeah, two bar of PPO2 is not really like some kind of accepted, no.

Um, yeah. Then I worked a little bit, uh, Indo, Indo Pacific. Uh, Europe, um, whereas yeah, Europe mainly, uh, after Kotaro. What,

[00:08:25] Matt Waters: what kind of diving were you doing in Europe then? Very fresh, very cold water.

[00:08:33] Maxime Cheminade: It's a big change from the warm water as a Thailander. That was, that was very interesting. So mainly, uh, high altitudes called Austrian lakes that are super deep freshwater, like 117, 170 meter depth, max depth on the lake.

Um, temperature only around at 20 is around 10 degrees minimum, maximum, and then 5, 4 degrees. Sometimes, uh, you will go diving, you, you get out of the water, your dry suit is frozen because it's minus 15 outside. So it's very, very different diving than the Gulf of Thailand. Um, yeah, very, very interesting diving though.

You learn a lot in, in fresh water, surprisingly. You learn a lot more about yourself than, than in, in like cold, warm water, where you can see fish. Everything is good. Uh, it's, it's great training.

[00:09:30] Matt Waters: So what, what's, um, let's pick up on that a little bit. What, what's, what's the additional kind of learnings that you're getting from difference between freshwater and saltwater?

Cause that's a topic that's never really come up on the podcast before.

[00:09:43] Maxime Cheminade: Oh, interesting. Um, okay. So, um, uh, freshwater buoyancy, just a feeling and sensation. is very different. Um, even if you do just, um, cave diving, let's say in a place like Mexico, you will, you will be in some freshwater environment. Even in, in south of Thailand here, we do have a seabed as an example, as a, as a cat, as a cave.

Uh, that is in, in the middle of the ocean at around 10 meter. You are in a freshwater environment. So sensation is it's the feeling is changing. Then it's going to sound very, very weird, but when you, when you thin, you can, you can feel the difference a little bit when you're very experienced into the two environments, Um, another thing is very nice because then when you, when your lips, it doesn't, it feels really different as well.

So if you know, the fresh water is good. Like in Austria, you can literally drink the water so you can remove your regulator, take a sip and then put it back. Um, but it's also the cold environment. Um, you, you have a very, like the feeling on your finger, uh, your face. Um, it, it, it's not hard. Like it's not physically, I mean, It's going to bring your tolerance to cold, uh, to the limits very, very fast.

But it's also a very, like the gear is heavier, um, like you can't really feel your, your gear anymore the way you used to, because you have like dry gloves or differently off wet gloves, depending on how deep you go and how long you stay. Um, it also makes mistakes on a dry suit, very unforgiving. Uh, if you're at five meter and you're in deco and you have half an hour of deco and you, for whatever reason, have a pinhole in your dry suits, it's going to be painful.

Um, it's going to be very painful talking about like experience. Yeah. Um, it's also, uh, like you have also different experiences in terms of decompression, like you're in altitude. So the decompression is going to change at the same time. You're in a cold environment. So if you're using, uh, heated vests, as an example, like you have vests where you can use, you can plug it on a battery and it can heat you on the water.

You have to be very careful because sometimes those vests can promote, uh, decompression problems. Uh, the way you off gas, on gas, the way you're handling those things. So, yeah, so that's, it's a very different training. You have to think a little bit more into gear wise, I would say, compared to your, even for your standard open water regression dive.

There's a lot more going into. A freshwater cold water dive than there is in uh, I jumped from a boat in south thailand and everything's beautiful

[00:12:27] Matt Waters: Yeah, do you um, is there any noticeable difference in uh, In your buoyancy when you change in depth More significantly than saltwater or is it relatively the same

[00:12:39] Maxime Cheminade: you, you sink, you sink faster and you sink, um, easier.

So you need, so that's a big problem, uh, because in, if you do, let's say dry suit diving in saltwater, um, you don't need that. You need a bit of weight, but the saltwater is going to help you to keep you afloat basically. But if you're in dry suit diving, uh, the buoyancy is like you, you, you sink much faster and sometimes you need to A bit more ways because you have very thick on a garment.

So all of those, like it starts to become harder to just like rely on as an example, uh, your, your, uh, your lung. Like if you take a deep breath in salt water, you can, you can pretty much like stay wherever you want, right? You can, you can take a deep breath and go up a little bit. You can, you can sink with your breath in, in fresh water.

If you are weighted properly and you take a deep breath, it might be, you still continue sinking. So it's just going to change quite a lot. Your, um, your reflects, uh, in terms of buoyancy or in terms of trim as well. Um, saltwater, you can like trim is easier. I feel that in freshwater, uh, just because of the, the density of the water.

[00:13:54] Matt Waters: Yeah. Um, that's like that they used to, or it used to flood annually in, or a park that used to flood annually in Austria. Did you ever get the chance to dive in there before they closed it off? Cause I'm the green lake now. I haven't,

[00:14:11] Maxime Cheminade: I, and I have to be, yeah, I know I have to be honest with you, I've looked into the fine.

I was, I was like, okay, should I, should I just go for it? It is extremely expensive. Like we're talking four, 4, 000 euros. Of things. Wow. And there's police all around , so you would have to go at night, you will have to, you know, like carry, like maybe on a re breeder and stuff. It's just, yeah. You can't off mode

Yeah. In, in, in Austria we have, um, we, there is, uh, an amazing, uh, NGO called Tower, which is, um, basically people cleaning lakes, uh, on their free times. Uh, I've been, I've been a member for, for a few years now and we even tried to get permits there and they were like, no, no, we, you can't, you can't get permits, like even for environmental reasons, they were like, no way.

So we were a bit sad, but yeah,

[00:15:02] Matt Waters: that's a shame that was one that was always on my, um, it was always on my radar and, you know, I think it was maybe 2014, 2015, something like that. It wasn't closed too long ago, was it?

[00:15:15] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah. Now, 2015 is actually, they did it because it was becoming, uh, like a spot where everybody was coming.

Yeah. And, uh, even, even just swimming in the lake is forbidden because this green, uh, tint that the lake is taking, it's starting to fade off because of all of the people activity. So they have banned any kind of like swimming in it. Uh, but it's, it's still very beautiful to go and see, uh, it's not, it's not that big.

It's maybe 700 meter. So it's, it's, it's basically a pound, uh, where there's like trees and stuff. And then during summer, because of the water level rised up from the, from the ice, ice melting next door and it's just rise and then it's underwater. It's beautiful to see though.

[00:16:05] Matt Waters: One day I might just save all the money and do the fine as well.

And do it. If you make the trip, let me know. I can, I'll come with you. Yeah. Beauty. Beauty. All right. Um, Let's, let's roll over to, um, photography for a little while because, um, ladies and gents, the first time that myself and Max met was actually last year when, um, I accompanied Nicholas Remy to Jordan to take part in the international underwater photography competition and Max, bless him, as we're walking down to, uh, what was that, um, the canyon walking down towards the,

[00:16:45] Maxime Cheminade: uh,

[00:16:46] Matt Waters: um, was it Bitrock?

Yes. Yes. Petra walking down Petra and I noticed his t shirt and it's a bottom lines t shirt, which I recognize from a mate of mine. There you go. Yeah. So I, uh, I said hello and said, who the hell are you? Cause I know bottom lines projects and he's been doing a lot of good stuff. So, um, that, that kind of feeds into the photography and we'll talk about bottom lines in a bit as well, but, um, photography side of things.

When did the, the camera action underwater start for you? How'd that come about?

[00:17:22] Maxime Cheminade: Um, so I started with camera like when I was young, at a young age, uh, my, my grandpa and my grandma used to own a cinema. So I was kind of like in the, in the camera and I wasn't the camera kind of, um, uh, world at this time. And we had, we were doing some film photography.

And then I, uh, like during the military, I bought one, my first reflex, uh, my own one, like an Nikon D90, something like this. And I started to pick up and do more and more and more photography. Did a bit of like wedding, did, uh, event photography, portraits. And then I became an instructor. So I still had my camera and I could see all of those photographers being there.

I was like, Oh, that sounds like very cool. So I, I picked up a very old camera, like a compact, uh, like I think I still have a picture of it. Like the thing was massive. And. Uh, I started to do my first photos there during like a few years later, I bought a better setup, started to do more and more photos and videos and getting more and more interested into it.

So when I was doing mainly like cold water in Austria, so in the 20, I would say 2017, 2018, I had a proper set up already and, uh, during, it's very like just before slash during COVID, but it's just started. Uh, that's very, very, very stylish. Uh, I did, uh, I did an amazing course. Uh, I wanted to do more for professional photography.

So I followed, um, a good friend of mine, uh, Lee Jelliman that was at Ritual Dive in Malta at that time. Uh, that is not pro video in Kotaro and I did a pro course with him. I wanted to know a little bit more into what he was doing as a photographer and as a videographer as well. To, you know, to get started and I really was a tech diver, so I was like, hi, what do you want to do?

And do all of those pictures. So I worked, uh, pretty much every single day, uh, since 2019, I would say to, to, to go and do more and more photography to try to live from photography as well, which is not always easy. Um, and then, um, Um, then back a few, like it's been a few years now, uh, I, I left every single rest of jobs that was doing that and I'm slowly leaving off, uh, photography, video, cinema courses.

Um, more I hand thing, uh, trying to follow the path of, uh, great rec photographer and key photographers that's, uh, that there is. And basically going to, uh,

[00:20:10] Matt Waters: More who you, um, who you aspiring to be? You wanna do any name dropping? Who you get to or starstruck over .

[00:20:18] Maxime Cheminade: Oh my God. Um, yeah, like, I think for me the best, not, not the bests, let's put more over way.

The, the one that I've inspired my work a lot more and I find extremely inspiring is Alex Dawson. Yeah. Uh, I think Alex as like, his work is fantastic. Uh, his video and his photo work is fantastic. Uh, he has a lighting that is brilliant to the places he go is brilliant. And, and, uh, I've actually met him during this competition where we met each other.

And he's also a very, very nice person, which I think is also adds even more to the, um, the whole thing. And yeah, then there is, of course, uh, Martin Braun, uh, fan being not, not that he keep, I mean, there is so many like brilliant underwater cave and explorers photograph. Like that was great photography.

It's very hard to point one, but if I had to choose one, I would say Alex, Alex is definitely like,

[00:21:19] Matt Waters: I do remember, I do recall your reaction when you got your honorable mention at, uh, Jordan. And it was very well, very well deserved young man. And it was a fabulous photo.

[00:21:32] Maxime Cheminade: But it was, uh, yeah, it's this, this shot as is, I think one of the best shots that I've taken in, in years. Um, and I mean, no, I'm not looking forward back to it. I will do a few things differently from, I think you're talking about the photo with the wreck that is almost falling on the diver, right? Yeah. I, I start to like, I'm actually doing a lot more of those kinds of shots, which are, um, Basically bending through the physics, if I can say like this, but creating like unsettled, uh, unsettling environments or unsettling, uh, composition where, where things could happen.

Well, in, in reality, we know that the shit is, it's been there for a few years. He's not going to fall down on anyone.

Yeah.

[00:22:16] Maxime Cheminade: Uh, but I'm trying, trying to do a lot more, like try to implement this kind of like mind tricks to, to the photos.

[00:22:24] Matt Waters: How do you mean? So like kind of put in. Given the perception that a diver's in danger of a wreck fall anonymous or something like that, right?

Example,

[00:22:32] Maxime Cheminade: or, okay. Or that it looks much, much deeper than, than it is or that, um, you will take a picture and you will lose all perception of Upton as an example. Uh, you, you don't really know, like you can, you can, you're being drawn in the picture. You see the diver, the diver is here, is in an environment, but you're not sure if app is actually up or down, is down or where it is, and it's just.

It tricks your mind into, into this kind of loop, which like, I love this picture, but I don't understand what's happening. I want to look in it more to actually try to figure it out. And if you, if you, if you go back to the picture of the wreck, um, actually the diver is tilted, the diver, there was a bit of current that day.

So we had to protect the diver behind the wreck to make sure the bubbles would not go too out of, out of shape, because if not, it's just a very dead giveaway. Okay. And then there is not so much floor, because if you will see so much of the floor, you will actually see that the rack is actually at an angle.

So I use a lot of those kind of angles called Dutch angle. And if you, if you have to touch angle like this, so if the rack is in this position, if normally the rack is there, but if you tilt it, then it makes it like, like it's gonna fall. It's just really like, very tricky. And I think it, it creates a very different perspective that we don't often see from, from places that we have been.

Um, I like to say the same thing. I like to say the same thing in the three star. Yeah. Sorry. Go on. No, I said, Alex is like, did the same thing in the three star. So there's this picture of a diver and you can see all of the seats are upside down. And it's actually the diver was upside down and he took the shot and then he reversed it.

But you don't see this. You just see the divers there. And then the wreck being like, like an actual wreck, like if the plane was upside down. So I really, I really like this kind of shots. It's it makes it for like a very. Interest more interesting kind of kind of thing.

[00:24:32] Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're in a, um, acquired a unique situation at the moment, aren't you?

With, um, with Mikko and the bottom line team and being able to get into the unexplored caves of Thailand. Um, I'm kind of expecting no pressure, mate. But seeing as what you've just said and going into scary as hell caves, I'm expecting tip top stuff from you now.

[00:25:05] Maxime Cheminade: Okay, so Yeah, we like bottom line. I Is kind of a very small group of passionate people that loves love exploring love bringing scientific um knowledge as well from environment that I've barely, barely explored, uh, or like helping communities. Uh, an example would be like, Oh, by way projects, which is, um, a mine up North Thailand that is in the country area sets of mine.

Um, most of the water filtering to this mines are actually going through to the valley. So we wanted to see, uh, they were very heavy metal mines. So we wanted to take samples, uh, you know, you use not only like go there for a cool reason and just do very cool things, but also have those, um, have also those, those, those details and those data bringing them back to people that matter.

So the communities that are around, see if the water that they are drinking. Where does it come from? Uh, do we have the same level of pollution from place A to place B, or is there something, you know, uh, that we can, we can look like that has been, that is going to collapse at one point, but might put people at risk.

Uh, we had massive collapse, uh, during the, during the exploration already. So very interesting dives, but, um, it's also bringing part of history back to Uh, we are a little, a little, a little sick, right? We are on the way to an expedition very, very soon to, to film some, uh, to film some, some documentaries for the Thai TV and Korean TV, uh, about mining and, uh, the entire history that they had about mining in, in their own country.

And it's just great because we can, you know, we can bring. People and do symmetry to, to even more people are on site alongside this. Uh, it's also doing fantastic diving. That is overhead environments in Southeast Asia. Wasn't really like a big thing. Uh, and then this year we have had more mind divers in, in, in Thailand.

We've been to the first place where we certified mind diver. And it's starting to get more and more popular. Um, cave diving was already popular with like the, um, the, the cave rescue that had happened with Mikko and the guys. So that this have really brought that cave diving. Right in Asia, Southeast Asia, uh, even, even Eastern Asia.

But, but mine diving is a very brand new thing and it blends, uh, the wrecks, the cave. And it's also in two places, but that is easier. Like the access is a bit easier than cave.

[00:27:59] Matt Waters: Yeah.

[00:27:59] Maxime Cheminade: So. So, you know, like this is also what bottom line project does is also providing training ground safe area for people that want to join, uh, such expedition and, uh, mapping photogrammetry.

So using photos, so that's also one of the thing I do a lot, which is using art, uh, photography to create 3d models and 3d maps to help, uh, divers to plan their life to also bring people, uh, that cannot dive or can doesn't really want to risk it. Uh, to places that they that are inaccessible to them. Uh, the example would be like Sivalan Cave.

Uh, we did around 30 percent of the 3D mapping of this, this area. And those data are being used by, uh, University of Malaysia, uh, for kids to be taught, uh, what would a cave look like. And, uh, Geology Department is using the data to, you know, look into it. So it's, it's a very different part of photography.

But it's also what bottom line project is. So, and it's also a lot of fun exploring in France.

[00:29:08] Matt Waters: Yeah, I just needed to add that bit on the end there that you're, you know, extremely fortunate to be going and diving and exploring and mapping and all the stuff that, you know, You know, uh, grown up kids like us like to do, um, have you had any, initially, did you have any kind of pushback with the Thai authorities allowing access to the mines to go and do everything?

It's a little bit more lenient given Mako's involvement with the rescue.

[00:29:39] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah. So we, I mean, we, we had at the beginning, uh, very like, it's not really even a pushback. It's was like, they don't understand. It's like, why do you want to go there? Yeah.

[00:29:51] Matt Waters: Yeah. Right.

[00:29:51] Maxime Cheminade: So, so if, if, if people start this way, it's like, why do you want to go there?

Why do you want to access those environments? It's not safe. Uh, so it was, I mean, it was, it's always very hard for people because if there is something happening there, uh, then who is to blame, you know? So they, it was very, very hard at the beginning, but, uh, luckily most of these environments are private.

So the, by working with the landowner, working with the companies, we're like, Hey. This is what we want to do. Um, we, we have, uh, this, this area that are, that we would love to explore. This is what we have done. And this is before track records, uh, because we don't disturb anything. We don't destroy anything.

We just there to, to, to map it and to do cool photos and cool videos, and then share it with people and then bringing more people that we had to get to a very strict guideline. Uh, it's been much, much easier, but it's, it's a lot of work behind It's not just let's go and take a car and then find a hole somewhere and then go diving.

Um, just even finding a suitable mine is, is a lot of background research on looking into, um, geological, uh, maps from Thailand and to, okay, where is the mineral deposit there? Crossing this information with more and more, um, uh, details on history. Uh, photos, archives. So there's a lot of research before that.

And then contacting the landowner and seeing if they are okay with us taking a look. Uh, if they're not, then we should not push of course, because then it's makes everything worse. Yeah. Uh, and, and, and, uh, the more we do those things, the bigger, the bigger it is. We just started to have a partnership with the uh, um, Thai national parks.

Okay. So before that, national parks were for, they are forbidden to dive. Like for everyone, but we have a special permit where we can ask part of, uh, uh, power crunchers. So we're the first people to be officially being put as power cruncher in order to be able to do the surveys and then access to the zone.

So, and a big, big thing would be, uh, Saturn, uh, Saturn province. We found what we believe is the biggest flooded cave in the entire Asian continent.

[00:32:12] Matt Waters: The biggest what cave? Sorry. Let me just

[00:32:14] Maxime Cheminade: flow that cave in the entire continent, which is we're talking in kilometers, uh, underground and it goes between two countries, between Malaysia and Thailand, which is a little bit tricky.

Yeah. Um, The part of the expedition found bones, uh, 8, 000 years old human bones there. Very interesting. Uh, so now it's closed because there's archeology, uh, archeological findings and everything. Uh, but this was in a national park that was at the beginning very, very close. And so by doing more projects, we get more into, uh, more, it's get more easy.

Let's say it like this. Yeah. Um, sometime we do get. Uh, a little bit of like crazy idea and tire, like, like, really, like, we're going to make you sign something that if you die, it's on you. When I told us referring to when they put the wrecks in, in Cotao, uh, Mikko and I decided that it would be a great idea to film the wrecks.

falling down from the water. So we were like, we were at, at the placement site, uh, underwater diving, uh, no idea where exactly the rig is going to fall because there was so much turbidity of water. It was crazy. Uh, turns out this is a very bad idea. But it made for very great images, but it was a bad idea.

Um, Yeah, no, so, so yeah, sometimes they are a bit like, are you, are you that crazy? Like, really, do you want to do that? Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, don't worry. If we think it's safe, it's like, Oh, where are our helmets? We're like, there is, there's a, there's a 400 ton ship falling on you. You think my helmet is going to cover it?

[00:33:58] Matt Waters: I did see the photos of you guys getting in with a helmet on. I'm like,

[00:34:01] Maxime Cheminade: what the hell are they doing? Yeah, it's not going to work. No. And then of course, when it fall down, it's like, there's shrapnel everywhere and things explode and you're like. Stupid idea. Don't do it. Yeah. Was it quite, uh, an intense noise as well with

[00:34:15] Matt Waters: that thing coming down?

[00:34:17] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah. No, it, the noise was so intense that it stopped my camera. Really? Um, yeah. And I have a, so I have a video, so I was, so the ship world was going somewhere here. I'm just behind Mikko. And you can see a black shadow falling down and Mikko being blasted by the ship and my camera stopping. Uh, I'll send it to you if you want.

This is very, very interesting. Yeah. Uh, you know, so that, uh, now, like, so that's why when we were thinking, like, How close were we? I was like, too close.

[00:34:49] Matt Waters: And yeah, the blast was, was very, very bad. And was that on the first one or the second one? Did you learn from the first one? That was the first one. Yeah.

[00:34:56] Maxime Cheminade: They didn't want us to go back to the second one. So we only could do it once. Um. Yeah, the second one was a little bit more tricky to place, so we did it only on the first one, and it was a really, like, um, pretty good experience.

[00:35:09] Matt Waters: Yeah. So what's, um, what's the go at the moment then? Are you, is the, the mind taking priority on, um, everyday life, or are you having to split it up and, and do some real work?

[00:35:24] Maxime Cheminade: Real work. Well, I mean, the, you like, let's, let's, let's separate two things in there. Cause mine's I will show where it work for me. Like I will, I follow from time to time call from, uh, Paul. I don't know if you've heard of him. I just love very, yeah. Paul. So I follow a lot of these courses when he wants.

When the students want to get cool shots during his, his courses. So it's a very, very complex, like it's a very different setup. Um, so I also go to the mine to do like some shootings. Uh, but those are the mindsets that we have really been exploring for a while. We, we know them there and this is, I would say that's one of the priority is all of the photo work, customer side, uh, commercial side, uh, and, uh, and this is kind of the priority.

And then we have all of the expedition side when we have, okay, let's, let's find new places. So this has to be like, I can't, I mean, I'd love to do that every day, but it's just funding is a very big problem. Um, and also we, we do have lifestyle around it, so we can't do that just full time.

[00:36:33] Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. And are you actively teaching on, on TAO as well?

Or is that, uh,

[00:36:40] Maxime Cheminade: not so much now? So I, I don't teach, yeah, I don't teach, uh, scuba diving. Uh, what am I, I'm a full, I mean, I'm an instructor. I could do it. If I then accept to, to teach scuba diving, I will have the time to do photography or to do commercial or to develop a company. So for me, uh, I love teaching diving.

You don't get me wrong. I mean, I love it, but I needed to choose something. So I'm actively teaching photography, technical photography, and as soon like a new program, it's called expedition photographer, which is basically like doing what I do on land and underwater to be able to bring images as part of a media team for, um, for like grants and expeditions.

Uh, when you, when you get grants from, uh, from a company, you want to, uh, they always want images. They want to see what's happening. They want to, the finding is very important to the images and all of the, all of the, the media that comes out of it is, is, is, is a very big thing. So I'm starting a new program that is going to be actually marketed and geared toward those people that wants to, to be able to do both sides.

Uh, so you're, you're at all of the logistics.

[00:37:54] Matt Waters: Okay. So you're effectively going to, are you going to be planning the expeditions for them as well? Or are you going to be the, the person that they can employ to come along and get all of the footage for them? So both of it,

[00:38:06] Maxime Cheminade: uh, the idea is to, um, of course, like for me as a person to be, to be able to go and to do this expedition, but also for, to train people to be able to do this.

It's a very specific kind of photography. Uh, it's also a very high risk kind of photography. So, um, you know, like taking photos when you are grappling down and there is somebody else down next to you and you want to be able to showcase those images, those very cool shots, you know, when you have like. Uh, an explorer going down with his entire rebreather on a, uh, on a, on a rope in the middle of nowhere.

Uh, the skill set that you need to do is not only photography, it's, uh, physical ability. It's, uh, all of the skills that goes around it. So it's, it's a very kind of new, new thing. Most people that do it, uh, are like, I've been long, long photographer that have experience in many, many domain, but there is not really any kind of, Teaching, going, going into that, or at least just, you know, bringing you like a head start.

So that's, that was basically the idea behind it.

[00:39:17] Matt Waters: And this is something that you're going to do from Kotow or wherever? The job site you

[00:39:23] Maxime Cheminade: pretty much wherever, uh, but, uh, we're going to start with Kotel. Uh, so Kotel, uh, is, is really nice training base because you can do scuba diving. Of course, you can do, uh, climbing, you can do, uh, we have a few caves here and there that we found that are not on the maps, so nobody's going there.

Um, you will also have like access to a lot of facility, uh, all of the logistics here. So if I need to go and fill up some trimix. I can go and fill up some time, extend that and go somewhere. Um, you know, it's, it's much easier, but, uh, yeah, definitely go looking into expanding this, uh, doing live liverboards as well, uh, geared towards wreck photographer and having, uh, having workshop during those, during those liverboards.

So lots, lots and lots and lots is,

[00:40:13] Matt Waters: Well, if you need a, if you need a handmate, um, my website's now gone live with nomadic scuba and it's there for supporting people like yourself that want to start their own businesses, leading expeditions, et cetera, more than happy to put you on there. I'm

[00:40:26] Maxime Cheminade: actually, yeah, I mean, you definitely do what I'm going to do this thing with.

So it's nobody else I want to do with things we like this with. So it's like,

[00:40:35] Matt Waters: it's pretty much like a given. Yeah. Good on you. Good on you. We can sort that out and we'll get you on there as a ambassador and start looking at the expeditions or like

that.

[00:40:45] Matt Waters: Hey, in fact, just on a, on a side note on that, actually, um, there's another thing that I was thinking about for a long time and I'm going to be launching it probably next week or week after.

And, um, in fact, you could be number one, actually, you can be the first person. Um, another thing that, that always. Kind of stuck in my mind, especially from being having worked in the industry and getting low paid salary And you know by the end of the month, you've only got a couple of pennies to rub together So money's always difficult.

So i'm putting into place an affiliation scheme as well so that you as an individual will have your own code and It goes hand in hand with continuity of customer care so an example Is you teaching a course, a video course, whatever, you build a rapport with your customers and they always ask where, where to go diving next, where's the best place to go, what's your recommendation?

Well, that's part and parcel of your job. And if you've got an affiliation code that goes to Nomadic Scuba, they can come and if they make a booking, you get a kickback as well, you get a bit of commission. And it's, um, just my little idea of, of putting a few pennies back into the pockets of, uh, dive pros, um, and it, you know, it, it, it maintains that link as well with, uh, the dive pro and the guests.

So it can happen time and time and time again, you know, and then you drag them onto your expeditions and full circle customer care. Exactly.

[00:42:13] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah, it's actually that, that's, um, that's a big thing is. I mean, it really depends how you are doing this as a business. I know that for me, like at the beginning I was doing photography and you know, it's, it's really hard to just being a photographer because photography is, you know, like you need to find, I mean, you, you're depending off the, what the structure is going to give you like as a dive center or a company or anything.

So being a company from scratch and actually going into that market, if you will hear how many times I've been, I've been told. photography doesn't work. You're never going to make money with it. It's very hard and stuff. And actually like it, I had to build it up from scratch because the amount of people that are doing it outside of a structure of there is, there is only so little, I mean, Alex is one doing it.

You will have a fan being, you will have, uh, like very, very small amount of people doing it that way. And it's very, very hard to arrive to this, this level. So I think those affiliate links and stuff is a very, very cool, uh, very cool way to actually kick back and then actually have customer care and returning customers.

And because this is actually like most of the people that are coming here and then I would maybe do an off camera lighting, uh, workshop is going to be a returning customers that I've been doing photography with or was during a course. Those people were like, Hey, let's do this. Let's do that. Uh, I was very, those have a very big customer base, And it should be.

I mean, this is, this is people you will trust and relationship with, so.

[00:43:48] Matt Waters: Oh, good on you. What's the, uh, yeah, can you say what the company is going to be called or is it still

[00:43:52] Maxime Cheminade: too early doors? It's still a bit early days. For now, it has a, I mean, the company exists and for now it has a very bad name, which is Maxim Automotive Productions.

But, uh, thinking into like, uh, changing names and doing something a little bit more interesting. But, yep. And. It's going to go with, I mean, of course, Kotaku Divers is going to be involved there at least on Kotaku for all of the, uh, all of the, um, support, uh, all of the, um, I'd say the, the, the logistics behind, because they have a boat.

I don't want to have, I don't want to buy a boat, for example. It's no sense. So like, boats, tanks, classrooms, it's very good there. Um, in the future, uh, like also like expanding through, uh, right now, uh, probably Singapore and Hong Kong. Uh, we have like a lot of relationship with TDI people in those, those two regions, so, and Malaysia a little bit.

So trying to go and also go more into the Asian Chinese market, which seems to be like absolutely loving that kind of photography. And teaching this, this, this market as well. So that's,

[00:45:06] Matt Waters: Hey, are you, um, just thinking on that one? Are you, are you guys coming over? I know you did your first major speaking spot at ADEX.

Um, was it last year, this year, this year, this year, this year, are you coming over for ADEX next year in Sydney?

[00:45:24] Maxime Cheminade: I am not sure. Uh, it's going to depend off, uh, of things. And I think, I mean, We've been invited again to speak to ADEX this year. So ADEX Singapore is for sure. ADEX Sydney, I'm not 100 percent sure.

I think that the tech, AUSTEC, is also going to be part of ADEX now?

[00:45:42] Matt Waters: Correct, yeah.

[00:45:42] Maxime Cheminade: I've seen something like this. So, why not? After the tech community. That'd be great. The tech community in Australia is quite big. I mean, there is, uh, between Nikola and, And many, many other people. I'm not sure we, like, do we have anything to contribute there?

Because Australia is not really our base. Uh, but there's so much cool things happening.

[00:46:08] Matt Waters: The thing is with Australia, I mean, there's loads of places to dive here and there's loads of caves and caverns and all that However, there's also a lot of people that have got a shit load of money that want to go overseas to do exploration as well.

And you guys have pounded into, you know, the minds of Thailand. I mean, what, what wouldn't excite a cave diver more than going somewhere that not many people have gone before? I'm not trying to sell the show to you, but exactly.

[00:46:37] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah, we have, we have very cool, like exciting stuff to do like, uh, this new year.

I will be going to a very new place. Uh, I won't share too much, but it's just as a teaser. So it's, it's a, there's a cave that's been found and it's literally in the middle of a city. So you can fly to the city, park your car, walk down the stairs, and then there's a cave there and you can go start your life from there.

There's between two buildings. So they didn't know it was there. Uh, they're like, Oh yeah, there's a cave here, but we go for picking water. Okay. Can we go and take a look? And it's actually brilliant. So like weird thing is like part of the cave, you have the foundation of the, um, of the building. So it makes it a very, very weird environment because you have like building's foundation and then you are literally in a decorated cave.

So like very, very interested, uh, very interesting place.

[00:47:31] Matt Waters: And you're doing that in the new

[00:47:33] Maxime Cheminade: year? Uh, yeah, this new year.

[00:47:37] Matt Waters: So we'll get, we'll get photos short while after. Definitely.

[00:47:43] Maxime Cheminade: Uh, that's going to be very cool. Very, very cool. Um,

[00:47:47] Matt Waters: yeah,

[00:47:48] Maxime Cheminade: so,

[00:47:49] Matt Waters: um, I mean, people have obviously made the link now between you guys and Mikko and Kotel Dive, is it, um, I'm not sure if I've ever asked you before, but how did you end up, cause you're a Frenchman.

I expected you, when you go back to Kotow, to, you know, go to another French shop. Cause most people stick with their own language. But you went to, um, Kotow Divers. And I'm just wondering how that link came into place.

[00:48:17] Maxime Cheminade: Okay, so if you want to go back to this link, you're going to have to go back a little bit more than that.

So I left France in 2016. And my English was absolutely terrible at the time. So I actually went to a French school and this is where I get my life master and instructor in a French school. And I did literally woke up morning and I'm like, You left France for a reason. You were tired of French. You were tired of like that, that of France as a, as a country.

And you wanted to see different part of the world, right? So you, you traveled 10, 000 kilometers away, all of it to go back to the exact same culture and the exact same language. Like, what are you doing? So it was just like morning. So I'm like, okay, like I need to do, I need to do some changes. I need to, I need to start speaking English, learning English, teaching, diving in English.

So you, I went from Frenchman speaking proper French to, and no English to like full on English, and it just opened me doors to, to, to such a different world in terms of culture and also like work, because even those, those, those, those places like Cote d'Ivoire or any of the dive shop in Cote d'Ivoire will have French people coming.

So if they want to have French native, they could, I could speak French native with them. Um, if, if not, I can, I just speak. English. And most of the time they're like, oh, you're French. I can't hear it. 'cause I've been speaking. I mean, you, I'm pretty sure you can still hear it, but most, like most French won't guess that I'm French.

Uh,

[00:49:52] Matt Waters: I'm very happy. Well, to be honest, I, yeah, I thought you, you were more towards Belgium and Holland Kind region when we first met. Didn't put you down as a full on. Frenchy. . I'm a foot on Frenchie. Okay. Baguettes and, and croon. . .

[00:50:06] Maxime Cheminade: But yeah. And, and, uh, I, I used, I mean, when I was here in Kotao, I used to do a lot of sidemount diving.

Uh, so 2016, 2017, and it was, it was really the beginning of sidemount diving. So there wasn't really so many people. And I used to rent a kit at Kotao Divers that they had, they had a nice X Tip kit and that's how I started to go into a bit more things with them. Uh, I was doing a little bit of technical dive, uh, which is like.

Like 60, 60 on air, like just chill, chill, uh, chill deco, uh, removing nets from, from some of your rack there. And that's why actually I met the crew at that time. Uh, and it's really during, during COVID as well, that I really started to do more things with Mikko. Uh, we were participating to a competition, a photo competition called, uh, Under Buffer Photographer, which was a fulfillment competition.

Uh, they wanted to do, uh, underwater photography, but in a bathtub and I was stuck at home. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah. I was stuck at home and I started to do off camera lighting in my bathtub with Ligo. And Ligo messaged me like, Hey, how did you do that? And we started to have like Zoom calls and here it goes, you know, and then doing more things.

We, uh, when I came to Kotao, I mean, when I came to Kotao, like back in 2022, I think 2022. Yeah. 2022. I, I, we met at the ADEX as well. So ADEX, so cool. Let's do some stuff together. And it all went downhill from that. Basically, we started to do stuff together, and then do more stuff together, and then, uh, then he didn't really know what to do with Bottomline Project at the time.

So I was like, ah, should I close it? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, don't close it. Just give me a minute. Let's figure that out. You know, it's, it's too good to have a foundation. Uh, and then not using it. So let's, let's, let's see what we can do with it, you know. So, uh, he. was very trustful with me. Like, uh, he basically gave me say, okay, do whatever you want, like just go for it.

Like if this is what you want to do. So it took me quite a few years now to work on this. And now we're looking into getting proper fundings. So it was always like self funded. So we would basically teach diving or do photography and then found this expedition No governments, no Thai government would pay money.

It was only us. And I know we're looking into like having actual fundings, uh, from bigger company to actually help us doing more things, greater things, going to like deeper, deeper places, uh, which we, which we need, uh, we had to suppose from a dive brand, uh, that are very cool. Uh, and, and then it continues to bullet us.

So it's, it's nice to, you know, to have those kinds of support as well. So yeah, it's been Um, mainly we're going to have Xdip, Xdip's exploration support program. Uh, we have, uh, Seal Drysuit, uh, which is also part of Xdip, but is slowly coming in. Uh, Big Blue Lights, we have, uh, we have quite a few. Uh, I personally have Dan, I have, uh, Garmin, Garmin Malaysia, that's been a very, very big help as well.

Uh, I have f-stop as well as backpack that are very beautiful backpack that I've been using for years to carry all the unit or medical gear sometimes as well because I do a bit of medical stuff and yeah, doing many things. , you're the medic as

[00:53:37] Matt Waters: well as the .

[00:53:39] Maxime Cheminade: Yes. I'm also one of the medic as well.

[00:53:41] Matt Waters: That must put the luggage over the top.

All the camera equipment and then medical on top.

[00:53:45] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah. You have idea , you, you have no idea. Yeah. And, uh, but it's, it's very useful. Uh, no, I think we, we need to get more medic because that's time I was the only one injured, so it was very interesting time, you know, when your medic is the one that has like, like, like all of the stitches and stuff.

Uh, we have a lot of gear that we need. Um, and like, you know, we're trying to look into like every single, like even cave line, like we're looking into like maybe. And I'm like, I'm going to be doing some stuff about our company. It's not there yet so I won't speak much about it. But it's a company that's like, Hey, like you have cool lines, you use it for many, many things.

Do you have a line for this? Uh, would you be interested to see that we can help you like do some commercial and cool stuff and also test your product? Because the idea is so we can test your product into like very harsh environments, tell you where it breaks. Because with Meco, it's always going to break.

And, and, and, you know, like give you like a full, Experience like a report over. Okay. This was the condition we were in. This has been, um, this has been like where we've found problem or not. And this is where we're going to continue testing the product over a long time. Uh, that was originally the ESP program.

The XD program was actually designed like this, uh, more than just funding. It was just like, okay, we're going to give you some gear and, uh, just let us know, like, where does it break? Because if it breaks for you, or if it doesn't break for you, then we know it's safe for like, um, open water diving with sidemount and recreational stuff.

And I think it's a brilliant idea because it gives you, it gives us product. It gives us stuff that we need to. We also go through it much, much faster than recreational people or even tech divers. And at the same time, it gives the industry like safer gear. Uh, and, and, and better products. So it was pretty cool thing.

[00:55:41] Matt Waters: I do like, um, I mean, I've never used XD, but, um, the whole, the whole system, it just looks so, so good. And I've never heard a bad thing about it, you know, and it looks cool as hell on a photo as well. Yeah,

[00:55:56] Maxime Cheminade: definitely. We do, we do. It looks cool, but you know what I mean? Like, it's just, let's talk about XD for a second.

Like, um, Like they really listen to people about doing this. Like you have some, some, some brands, uh, that are coming on the market right now, or like, like small brands or things that are going to be expedition tested. Like, okay, where, like, where have you been testing those things? It looks cool, but at the same time it has been like battle tested.

Like I, I think I have pictures of like, even if you look at me, cause like, like sidemount, this is, this is like, it's full of holes in it. And if you look into me, I mean, I go through and I'm not baby in the gear. Um, and, and it's brilliant to see how, how harsh you can actually put those things through and it just stays, um, like it, it, it keeps having the function like, yeah, of course it's going to look damaged because you, you've been through hell with it.

Uh, but at the same time, it keeps the primary function. It's keeping you safe there and you get, um, you get a very good, a very good product at the end. So I think this is a, this is brilliant, you know, um, like. I think many companies should do, should do things like this. Yeah. Um, but unfortunately not, not everybody is willing to, to do like this.

[00:57:21] Matt Waters: And it, and you're right. It is a shame. Cause you know, as I say, sitting here as a neutral point of view and just watching, you know, people like yourselves and Mikko and then other cave, cave miners in or Cenote divers over in Mexico, um, exploratory divers that are just knocking the shit out of their equipment.

Why wouldn't you put it on their back? Why wouldn't you get the feedback to make the product better? You know, you can wait for 10 years to get that kind of information when you can get it in a year from, from guys like yourselves that are doing all this work. So I think I applaud them and I don't have anything to do with them.

You know,

I

[00:57:56] Matt Waters: think they do a fabulous job.

[00:57:59] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah. It's also very cheap for them because they just have to give you a product and then you can give them R and D for free. It's, it's, it's much brilliant to do R and D like this because it just brings you. Directly the, um, how to say the, uh, the information that you need to know about the product, you know,

[00:58:19] Matt Waters: like, yeah.

What's, um, what's next on the menu then, mate? For today or for this month or for next year?

[00:58:27] Maxime Cheminade: All of

[00:58:27] Matt Waters: it.

[00:58:28] Maxime Cheminade: All of it. For today I have a bit more editing to do. I'm in the office today, so like I'm a bit more work to do. Um, yeah, we have, we have, uh, with the school projects, uh, filming, we're going to go this weekend, uh, a few courses starting, uh, then, uh, maybe like a few days of holidays, which is really good to get some holidays from time to time, but, um, yeah, we're going to start with this cave exploration during new year, uh, that is going to be interesting, uh, then, uh, a bit more documentary projects.

I think under NDS, I cannot really speak about this either. And then we already in February, you know, so February we have, we have new caves, uh, in Laos with Mikko, we're going to look into, uh, a new mine as well, uh, we've been trying to reach out. Unfortunately, we're stuck eight kilometers away from it because it's very in the middle of the jungle.

So, uh, we need to go and find pathways. So we're going to look into it. So look into drones. Uh, if there are any pathway we can find, uh, we wanted to go for it, uh, last September, but it was a little bit, it was, it was very hard after the crash we had. We had to sit back a little bit and just like reflect on what happened and how we will change procedure.

Cause Uh, when you, when you fail and when something like people get hurt, you would definitely want to learn from it and say, okay, we're going to have to do things differently this time. Uh, so we definitely got to do things differently. Yeah. And, uh, um, that after that, we have, uh, we're going to be in March.

And then we'll see, we'll see what happens.

[01:00:13] Matt Waters: Yeah.

[01:00:14] Maxime Cheminade: Like it's, um,

[01:00:17] Matt Waters: do you have any idea of, I mean, when we talk about the mines in Thailand, um, you know, can you try and give us an idea on, on how much, uh, there is to explore and how much you've done so far?

[01:00:33] Maxime Cheminade: It's, it's, it's, I would say unlimited potential. Uh, it's that big.

Yeah, uh, mining culture in Thailand was, was very, very big, uh, before being one of the first rice exporter, they were our first mining, like a lot of coal, a lot of lead, um, and it was a bit the wild west, especially like at the beginning of 1900, uh, some of the, um, some of the places, like we, they, they used to get like permits for extracting certain resources, but if I'm talking about, Uh, like bow ai, which is a, a set of multiple minds in, uh, in, in, in catch library.

I think the maximum, the, the amount of, I think it's 40 kilometer of tunnels, . Jesus. Just, just tunnels. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's insane. And I think the max step is at 250 meter. And so this product as an example, there is a very cool thing. So apparently, so we talked with the engineers. And like very, very old people, um, that at the web, this man was still explored.

He, um, exploited until 1930, 1940. So we went and talked to the engineers that actually built it. And, uh, while there is no map left, so this map has been destroyed, unfortunately, uh, there was a massive fire. And this is also one of the reason why the man has been abandoned. Uh, we, there is a place called, uh, the crystal cave, the crystal, crystal chamber, they call it.

And it's very hard for us to know where it is, but it's somewhere, we think around 90 to 150 meter, uh, and one of our objectives is to basically find this place. Uh, but that, that gives you an example of like, this is one set of area. Uh, we found so far, uh, seven other sites that are like suitable for diving.

Yeah. Uh, and. Like the last one we were up north, uh, where, which, like, where we, we got, uh, the last, uh, incident was like, it's brilliant. We, we arrived there. It's, it's, it's in a, in a very beautiful area. It's in a, it's in a very different kind of area as well. So like the mining, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the structure, the way they have been built is very, very different.

We also found, uh, like some mine in Malaysia. So there is a town that is a mining town, which is very, very interesting. There's this mining town and, uh, they used to, they used to be like mining, like as a business, but now they're using mining as a way to attract tourists. And there is this resort that has its own private mine.

And the entire village uses the water from that mine to, for the shower, for washing dishes. Like it's, it's really crazy. And it was an illegal mine. So it has been digged like very, very weird. So you have to be very careful because mining is extremely dangerous. Like the mind diving is probably, I think, biggest, most dangerous sports you can do in like in any kind of scuba, uh, because they're very unstable.

But you, you end up, I mean, we ended up in a chamber with like a lot of like, uh, you know, those big, uh, wooden poles that are literally like trying to hold the walls and they're still floating around. And like, it's, it's a very weird and very interesting place. So the walls

[01:04:05] Matt Waters: aren't even being held up. It's just the water that's holding the walls up then.

[01:04:09] Maxime Cheminade: Yes. So you have to be very careful. So like, that's where like going with rebreeders makes a lot of sense. Yeah. You want to make sure that you have the least, even with rebreeders, sometimes stuff collapse just because when you, you, you, you, you kick, uh, then stuff starts to start to break down. So like you, you have to be a bit careful on this area.

Uh, it's not.

[01:04:33] Matt Waters: Do you have to, um, Do you have to be mindful and test the water as well for any kind of contaminants from when they were coming in? Yeah,

[01:04:39] Maxime Cheminade: so, okay. Yeah. So that's, we, before we even jump somewhere, we, we have some test kits. So we, we use, uh, the first one we will do just to, just to give a quick rapid check will be, you know, the same thing as your pool.

Uh, when you have a pool and you want to see if the water is good. So it gives you like, kind of like primary contaminants. Uh, yeah, like the pH level kind of

[01:05:01] Matt Waters: thing. Okay.

[01:05:02] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah, it's basically like, it's a band let's, it's very, very, very long and you just duck it for a second and then you look into like the, the colors.

Uh, so we will look into like, uh, if there is lead as an example, you don't dive in that like, uh, that's a bad idea. Um, we have, um, we didn't have yet the case form, but, uh, we just got some JJ, uh, counter, you know, for radioactive water, because we might go and do some uranium mine soon, which is if the water is contaminated, you really don't want to go and, you know, cause if you come back and you look like a glow stick, you know, it makes no sense.

Um, so yeah, we, we have had, we've been looking into maybe doing some, um, Very interesting thing, especially up North in, uh, in Europe, uh, that where like Soviet era and stuff like this, like a very, very interesting kind of area again, but it's going to have to wait a little bit, I think with current, uh, the current situation in those countries, uh, but there is a lot of like a lot happening as well.

So we, we need to check water quality. Um, we most of the time use wet dry suits when they, when they work, but, um, But even just the exposure on your face, uh, to lead for hours is like, it's, it's terrible for you. So we have to look into it. And what we do is we also collect for the first time we go, we collect some samples.

So we will basically go, like, to a face sample, like, we can do it there. And then we will take, uh, take some, uh, some containers and basically sample, 40 meter, one hundred, one this area, and we will look into it. We look also into the, um, the different, like, uh, when drains, uh, water level certainly goes up. So it brings a lot more inside of the, of the mine.

So we want to make sure that what, what's bringing, being brought in is still safe to dive. Uh, we of course use like hoods and gloves and then rinse ourselves with fresh water pretty much immediately after the dive. Uh, so you have to be careful as well on those things, like contaminants are, there is a lot in this, in this water.

[01:07:14] Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah. And with regards to, um, you know, once you've mapped a cave and, oh, sorry, a mine and determined that it's, it's good enough, uh, using as a teaching facility, um, are there only particular instructors that are allowed to get signed off by the local government to do it?

[01:07:35] Maxime Cheminade: So it's going to depend on where, where it is.

Um, if we can take the example of power, which is what the big, the, the, the biggest, uh, teaching, uh, biggest teaching ground is. Uh, you have only a few, a handful of, uh, instructors that are allowed to go to the gate. Uh, so there's a gate with guards there. So, in order to go there, if you wanted to teach it illegally, you would have to go through quite a few, a few, a few kilometers of jungle.

Uh, on your own with a scuba tank and let your car outside. So there's a big gate, there's guards there. Uh, so they know who is allowed, they know who is not allowed to go there. Uh, so very, very easy to, uh, To, to go, uh, then, uh, like local government is very, very careful. So if you will go like, um, cow sock used to be a great place for cave diving and it's forbidden now because there has been incidents, uh, where life were lost.

So, uh, in order to go, like we can do, we have been doing some, some diving cow sock, uh, many for rescue reasons, but, uh, you need to have like very high level of permission to go there and being signed off by quite a few people. So, yeah, like, and it's needed because if not, people are going to start to do, uh, stupid things.

And, uh, and if somebody gets hurt there, uh, then, then this is the end of those projects. So you need to be very careful. That doesn't mean that nobody can get hurt. Uh, I mean, you know, you, you're still scuba diving, so you can have like, let's say, decompression problem. Uh, we have a hospital not far from there.

We have procedure in place. We make sure that everything is as safe as it can be. Um, the teaching area are clearly defined, uh, in case there is any collapse at certain zones, uh, there is exit into many different ones. Uh, so, you know, it's not, uh, it's not just like, oh, let's go to a hole and then go and teach there.

It's okay in case something happened, what do I do? Uh, we have people passing through, uh, from the government just to check out on us, you know, when we're here. Take the moped, they can arrive and they just check out, is everybody here still? And then they know if like, if like, it's like 10 PM and people are still there, something's wrong.

So we, you know, uh, there is a lot of more procedure that goes in behind and that's also why there's also a only certain instructor that can go and teach there because, uh, because you need to be accredited there to, to go, et cetera.

[01:10:04] Matt Waters: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Um, and I'm assuming it's kind of just a handful of people at the moment that have got the authority to go and do it.

[01:10:13] Maxime Cheminade: Yeah, it's, uh, around seven or eight people, I think, that can, can go there and, and teach. Uh, it's going to be mainly like Mikko, Mikko Po, uh, some of the people from the, from Thailand as well has, have the possibility to go there. Uh, and, and then a few, a few more foreigner from, from Phuket and Krabi that have, um, that have been like vetted through to go there.

And yeah, we try to, I mean, there's pretty much like, it's, it's really interesting because there's always somebody there at the moment. It's like, uh, like we have a base camp that is next to it. We pretty much have, we have a compressor standing there. We have 20 tanks that are always there. We have oxygen, helium, like big jays of helium that are just there because, and soft lime, like, because we, there's always somebody that is training around or doing some, uh, fun diving or anything.

And the nice thing with all of this is, is also bring. Local community, uh, money and people and commerce because they're like, Oh, we have a brand new kind of, um, brand new kind of, of, uh, tourism that wasn't there before. And these people are like, Oh, we, so we try to always pause an example is always going to many of the restaurants around, uh, for, for dinner, try to involve the community as well.

Uh, so, you know, it brings. Uh, it brings as well there, uh, a bit of fundings. Uh, we also give, uh, a little bit of money to the park to make sure that, you know, to think as a thank you to also add to us to go there, uh, it brings, you know, it's, it's also helping everyone to, uh, commercially. So, um, from a place that wasn't used, uh, they used to do tours like with, with pickup around the mine, uh, no, they, they have actually much more income that comes from also squatters.

Uh, just coming and doing their courses or exploration, which I think is one of the nice thing around

[01:12:12] Matt Waters: it's going to be nice to watch the growth of it, to be honest.

[01:12:16] Maxime Cheminade: They have a t shirt now with a picture that, uh, with pictures we took in the mind with like, like, so they wear it as part of the background, which is like, that's pretty cool.

They made it themselves, like they, they took a picture and they just stick it on t shirts and it's like very, very interesting. So it, you know, you're like, okay, that's, that's whole important that you became as a part of this. While two years ago, we were just barely scratching the, like, it was very, like, very hard because they were, they were more like, Oh, what are you doing here?

Like, I don't understand. And Noah's like, Hey Max, how are you? Like, Oh, I'm doing diving today. Are you doing, which mine are you doing? Or like, Oh, I'm going to, to M3. And I go, okay, have fun. You know, come by and see you later. It's just, it's very different. Fabulous.

[01:13:01] Matt Waters: And that's the, uh, that's the, that's the Thai community though, isn't it?

All right. So. Yes, yeah, definitely. Very, very nice. Hey, if you've got any, um, kind of little maps or something like that, you could flick on over to me image wise and chuck it into the show notes.

[01:13:19] Maxime Cheminade: I think we have a map, a stick map that we just finished that Paul just posted online. I can give you that and I can send you some, some photos and stuff, but it's like, so like, see, that's, that's one thing we do with the courses is every mind course, The full mine, specifically the rebuilders, uh, they do a bit of like, uh, surveying and we survey specific zone and like this, we add this map to the bottom line project map.

So like this, you know, you're not only just getting training, you also give it back to us. Uh, we don't take your money, but we take just a little bit of your time. Uh, it's going to give you good training, you know how to do it. And then we basically get better map, uh, that's going to be used by people. So that's awesome.

We have mapped 3 percent of it, but the map is, yeah, but it's, um, a centimeter. Uh, accurate map, uh, from the length to the depth. And it's, it's very, very, very, very accurate.

[01:14:14] Matt Waters: Awesome sauce. All right, mate. Well, I shall let you get back to doing some office duties. Thank you very much, . Um, say hello to everyone for me and um, definitely we'll, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll see you again hopefully soon.

Thank you very much for listening folks.